Guardian Cryptic N° 26,087 by Gordius

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[If you’re attending York S&B please see comments 32&33] - here

Not a difficult solve, but not an easy blog, with various quibbles. The puzzle may be found at http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/26087.

Gordius can come up with such ingenious clues that I would like to feel that he is unjustly put down; but here, as often, there are just too many loosenesses for a really satisfying result.

Across
8. It’s OK for youngsters, but not for when we’re getting on (8)
BADINAGE BAD IN AGE (‘not for when we’re getting on’). Amusing, even if the (extended) definition is weak.
9. Sauce not right with a prophet (6)
ELISHA A charade of [r]ELISH (‘sauce’) without the R (‘not right’) plus ‘a’. 
10. You can bet here‘s a misdemeanour in company (6)
CASINO An envelope (‘in’) of ‘a’ plus SIN (‘misdemeanor’) in CO (‘company’). 
12. Man of rank struggled with endless greatness (8)
SERGEANT An anagram (‘struggled with’) of ‘greatnes[s]’ without its last letter (‘endless’). 
13. Bath chaps reflect some local feature (3)
SPA Hidden (‘some’) reverse (‘reflect’) in chAPS, with a hint of a further definition at the end of the clue.
14. In time, bad type could do with correction (6)
ERRATA An envelope (‘in’) of RAT (‘bad type’) in ERA (‘time’). 
16. Prince shortly named over regarding curved surfaces (8)
GEODETIC A charade of GEO (George, ‘Prince shortly’) plus DETIC, a reversal (‘over’) of CITED (‘named’). 
17. Wherein I might have been patriotic, but you end ferocious (7)
BRUTISH If the U (‘yoU end’) were replaced by ‘I’, there results BRITISH.
20. Weather in 17 before it changed going to eastern country (7)
UKRAINE An envelope (‘in’) of RAIN (‘weather’) in UK (British, ’17 before it changed’) plus E (‘eastern’).
23. Difficulty of getting label for minced horse? (8)
SHORTAGE An envelope (‘for’?) of TAG (‘label’) in SHORE, an anagram (‘minced’) of ‘horse’. 
24. 12 with lonely hearts? (6)
PEPPER A reference to the Beatles album.
26. Epidemic brought back from the Gulf (3)
FLU Hidden (‘from’) reversed (‘brought back’) in ‘gULF‘. 
27. Average pest said to produce irrational fear (8)
PARANOIA A charade of PAR (‘average’) plus a homophone (‘said’) of ANNOYER (‘pest’).
28. Strong ham, as 79 of 12,087 (6)
FACTOR A charade of F (forte, musical ‘strong’) plus ACTOR (‘ham’). You do the maths. 
31. Private words, as over a party (6)
ASIDES An envelope (‘over’) of SIDE (‘a party’) in ‘as’. 
32. Dial can be cool (4-4)
LAID-BACK A reverse clue: LAID back  is ‘dial’.
…
Down
1. State doubly likely in the elderly? (4)
GAGA GA (Georgia, ‘state’) repeated (‘twice’), with an extended definition which many may find distasteful. 
2. Tragic heroine in opera, mostly parody (4)
MIMI A subtraction, MIMI[c] (‘parody’) ‘mostly’. 
3. Snack for prophet in Salvation Army (6)
SAMOSA An envelope (‘in’) of AMOS (‘prophet’) in SA (‘Salvation Army’), for an Indian savoury filled pastry, offered as a snack or appetizer.
4. Seems artificial silver in cable, say (7)
MESSAGE An envlope (‘in’, even if the order is inverted) of AG (chemical symbol, ‘silver’) in MESSE, an anagram (‘artificial’) of ‘seems’. 
5. Annual time to arrest (8)
YEARBOOK A charade of YEAR (‘time’) plus BOOK (‘arrest’). 
6. Army officer gives assistance on point to make off (4-2-4)
AIDE-DE-CAMP A charade of AID (‘assistance’) plus E (‘point’ of the compass) plus DECAMP (‘make off’). 
7. Hang about with a Scot from Africa (8)
GHANAIAN A charade of GHAN, an anagram (‘about’) of ‘hang’ plus ‘a’ plus IAN (‘Scot’). 
11. “Gentleman” is upright (3)
SIR A charade of SI (‘is up’ in a down light) plus R (‘right’). 
14. Decline of Thatcherite released from bird (3) the enveloping TIT
EBB A reference to Norman [T]EBB[it] (Conservative politician and ‘Thatcherite’; now Baron Tebbit)  without the enveloping TIT (‘released from bird’). I first published this without  getting the wordplay, but it occurred to me as I did a last pass of the blog.
15. Pudding gobbled, drawback later (10)
AFTERWARDS An envelope (‘gobbled’) of WARD (‘DRAW back’) in AFTERS (‘pudding’). 
18. Practise 21 in rising Surrey town (8)
REHEARSE An envelope (‘in’) of EAR (the answer to clue ’21’) in REHSE, a reversal (‘rising’) in ESHER (‘Surrey town’). 
19. Ocean mount? (3,5)
SEA HORSE Cryptic definition. 
21. Attention is part of learning (3)
EAR A hidden answer (part of’) in ‘lEARning’. 
22. It occurs to a shadow minister to keep notes (7)
BEFALLS An envelope (‘to keep’) of EF (musical ‘notes’) in BALLS (Ed, the current shadow Chancellor, ‘a shadow minister’), 
24. Bird‘s taken in by brash advertisement (6)
PUFFIN A charade of PUFF (‘brash advertisement’) plus ‘in’. I cannot see ‘taken’ as serving much purpose in the wordplay, although it makes for a good surface. 
25. Indulge in huff (3)
PET Double definition. 
29. Copper live, solid and regular (4)
CUBE A charade of CU (chemical symbol, ‘copper’) plus BE (‘live’), for one of the five regular Platonic solids. 
30. Island loses little time over whales (4)
ORCA A subtraction: [min]ORCA (‘island’) without (‘loses’) MIN (‘little time’). Unless there is another interpretation, ‘over’ seems superfluous. 

48 comments on “Guardian Cryptic N° 26,087 by Gordius”

  1. Nice stuff from Gordius in his well-established style.

    In 23a I think “of” is a link and “getting” indicates the containment – so it’s HORSE* gets TAG with “shortage” as the def and “of getting” optionally extending it (which didn’t occur to me at the time).

    Surely the post-operative “in” in 4d is a widely used device – not particularly a Gordianism.

    1d does seem to invite controversy – although as a clue it works marvellously well.

    Either way – much fun and thanks to both setter and blogger.

  3. I enjoyed most of the puzzle, though it took me a while to parse ‘ebb’, having not yet solved the politically balancing ‘befalls’, but I share some of Peter’s reservations. Am I missing something, or does 8a lack a definition?

  4. An enjoyable puzzle although 16a and 22d escaped us. I agree with George Clements that 8a lacks a definition. The definition in 14a really should be ‘corrections’!

  5. Thanks Gordius; I thought this was very enjoyable.

    Thanks PeterO; despite the above criticisms, I thought BADINAGE was quite a good clue. You might not expect the elderly to engage in it, whereas youngsters would. A bit loose but a nice surface. The only quibble I had was the ‘for’ in 23 where the surface seems to have confused the wordplay, although it didn’t really hold up the solving.

    I ticked a number, including LAID BACK, PARANOIA, EBB, BRITISH and AFTERWARDS.

  6. I agree with PeterO (thanks for the blog) about 8a – why should badinage be OK for youngsters but not others? That’s no definition at all. If anything it’s the other way round, as it strikes me as a slightly dated or affected word.

    19d is pretty poor too – the point of a CD is that it should suggest something completely different from the answer at first sight; but “ocean mount” doesn’t mean anything in particular, other than synonyms for “sea” and “horse”.

    The numbers in 28a made it immediately give itself away to me, even without checking the maths. Why not “as 2 of 6” for example, misleadingly suggesting a reference to other clues?

  7. Andrew @6; I see what you mean but ‘playful or frivolous repartee or banter’ to me is still more likely to be engaged in by the young. 🙂

  9. I’ve not commented before, as I’m usually much later finishing!

    Thanks to setter for an enjoyable solve and blogger for explaining a few I couldn’t parse.

    I think in 7d the ‘a’ is part of Iain, to make him Scottish.

  10. Still not a fan of 4d; although I accept that it’s not wrong, it seemed a bit out-of-keeping difficulty-wise with the otherwise fairly straightforward daily puzzle. Something like “Seems artificial silver there in cable, say” or “Seems artificial silver in that cable, say” might have been harder to argue with.

    I enjoyed BRUTISH and PARANOIA. Clues like 16a make me think that compilers are going to get a lot of milage out of “Prince = Geo” in the next few years, although to be technical, it’s “geodesic” that has more to do with curved surfaces; “geodetic” pertains to the measurement of the Earth (which is, I’ll admit, a curved surface of sorts…)

  11. In sundry electronic dictionaries I can find definitions for GEODETIC and related words which relate to various things such as the earth’s surface (which is obviously a singular instance) and lines on said surface, neither of which translates to the general concept “regarding curved surfaces”. Is it in one of the paper jobies?

  12. As often with Gordius most of them seem like ‘forst ideas’, not worked up afetr the initial thoughts. This can make things extra-hard!! There is a good crossword on The Indy today. Luckily for me?

    Rowland.

  13. I wonder how old Robi (@5 and 7)is. Speaking as a person of very mature years who engages in badinage as a competitive sport, I resent his implication that I am too 1D. Gordius needs reprimanding, too.

  15. BADINAGE last in for me, working backwards from AGE at the end and then working out what fitted the checkers, rather than expecting the clue to make any sense. Alas. For clues like 11d, 14d, 15d are all quite clever.

    Started this on my way to my mum in her nursing home. GAGA was indeed a distasteful start. Getting home, I checked my GEODESIC online so made the change which accorded to the wordplay. Derek @11, Chambers gives GEODETIC as an alternative to GEODESIC, so he’s in the clear here.

  16. Thanks to Gordius and PeterO. Finished all but 1d. Couldn’t decide between mama and papa. Came here to find that it was neither! GAGA is likely in the elderly? My grandkids say I
    am elderly but I don’t feel GAGA. I’m trying to forestall it but doing crosswords.

    Cheers…

  17. Thanks PeterO and Gordius

    PARANOIA was groanworthy.

    I didn’t see a definition for BADINAGE either.

    I was happy with “ocean mount” as I entered SEA HORSE, as I remembered it as a description of an underwater mountain. However, with further thought, I recalled the expression is actually “sea mount”.

    When did anyone last receive a cable as a “message”?

  18. Surely, youngsters are said to say something is BAD when they mean something is good. So they say bad in or at a certain age, but not so when they grow up, feel,the aches and pains of age and feel badinage?

  19. I am content that some found this puzzle more satisfying than I did – there is some good stuff here, and perhaps I should be more accepting of my frustration with what I did not like.

    JollySwagman @1

    I parsed 23A as I did because ‘difficulty’ seemed a poor definition for SHORTAGE, and ‘difficulty of getting’ seemed at least a step in the right direction; but on reflection, I think your route is preferable.

    Andrew @6 (and muffin @17)

    I consider 19D a near miss – the usual expression is “sea mount”, but as a clue that would repeat the “sea”

    Muffin @17

    I find that you can still send a telegram should you feel so moved.

  20. Mikes @ 18
    That reminds of the old question “Why did Michael Jackson call his album ‘Bad’?” “Because he couldn’t spell ‘Appalling’.”

  21. PeterO @19
    Really? I had heard that it was possible to send a telegram up to last year in India, but I thought that the service had stopped even there!

  24. Trailman, but you didn’t say what Chambers says about Geodesic! All the electronic dictionaries I’ve looked at also give that connection, but then failed to say anything that means “regarding curved surfaces”. The longest explanation is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic where it is quite clear that what is meant is lines (curves) on a surface, not the surface itself. Therefore, “regarding curves on surfaces” would have been more accurate given the definitions I’ve seen so far.

    Naturally, given what I’ve said over the years, I don’t entirely trust Chambers when it comes things technical, but it would be interesting to see if they’ve done something right for a change!

  27. Chambers also has the tantalising definition of ‘GEODESIC (or GEODETIC) line’ as ‘the shortest line on a surface between two points on it’,

  28. Trailman @27

    The term is also extended for use in the General Theory of Relativity: gravity is explained by saying that a body warps the space-time around it, and another body in the vicinity traces a geodesic – the shortest route available.

  29. Derek @11

    Your post prompted me to enter GEODETIC in Onelook Dictionary Search. Clicking on Collins, always my first choice, I got ‘another word for geodesic’, clicking on which gave me ‘relating to or involving the geometry of curved surfaces’. How did you miss this?

    Are you suggesting that in 16 ‘regarding curved surfaces’ is an inaccurate definition? I got it straight off, or rather I needed the wordplay to resolve D from S. I didn’t feel the need to consult dictionaries. You can’t rely on them when it comes to scientific stuff.

    The wordplay also alludes, sort of, to a christening yesterday. This passed me by until I saw the Souvenir Edition of the Times. For a second I wondered if Their Highnesses had named him Georgeus.

  30. PeterO @ 28
    (Getting a bit technical, I know) – Richard Feynman’s most important contribution to quantum electrodynamics was the principle of “least action” – i.e. particles follow the path that requires the least “energy” (rather loosely).

  32. Hah, wiki has two entries! But that second one says much the same as the first one.

    rhotician? You still look at dictionaries for technical definitions? I shan’t be flying in the plane built from dictionary definitions, but don’t let me stop you! I didn’t look at Collins because life is too short to look at every on-line dictionary, especially when you’ve looked at several already, there are just too many of them. I see Collins, like many others, make absolutely no attempt to give sources for their statements, one is expected to accept what they say as some sort of matter of faith, how reassuring.

  35. I think that this is a typical Gordius puzzle with a mix of some easy clues, some good ones, and a couple of iffy ones. In particular I thought the clue for BADINAGE was very weak.

    Regarding the “over” in 30dn I would say that it is far from superfluous. It is needed for the surface reading and doubles as an indication that the “little time” should be removed from the top of the name of the island.

    GEODETIC went in from the wordplay, and EBB from the definition because I had forgotten about Tebbit. While the answer might not have been to everyone’s taste I thought the clue for GAGA was quite good and the alternative answers that other people toyed with didn’t even occur to me.

  36. Derek – No, I don’t “still look at dictionaries for technical definitions”. Like I said, your post prompted me to investigate GEODETIC. I was surprised that you had not found anything relating to “regarding curved surfaces”. I was pleased to find so quickly that Collins had what you were looking for.

    I still don’t understand why, in the first place, you were looking at dictionaries, on-line or otherwise, for their definitions of this particular technical term.

    Sometimes, out of curiosity, I look up technical terms to compare a setter’s definition with Chambers and Collins. I think the last time I did so was when EIGENVECTOR appeared. Not difficult for the setter who used “mathematical concept”. Both dictionaries, in different ways, seemed to rise well to their more severe challenge.

  37. Cos, inaccurate as they are, they are a quick first port of call. Sometimes that is enough, mostly it isn’t but I may have a better idea of where to go next!

    The problem with this word seems to be a confusion between surface and line. Lines may or may not be defined on a surface. Drawing a line on a surface tells you nothing new about the surface. So the implied generalisation doesn’t work.

    Got to go to a gig, cya.

  38. Well the week certainly ground to a halt today!

    Usual Gordius alternating between easy and iffy.

    So many issues with the clues that some haven’t even been mentioned on here as you can’t see the wood for the trees!

    Thanks to PeterO

  39. Celia – 26087 is the number of today’s xword in the print edition. I noticed this but assumed it was a matter of chance as I guess, maybe wrongly, that the setter generally doesn’t know on which date his puzzle will appear.

  40. There is something in me that appreciates Gordius’ ‘playfulness’, even if I agree with many others that he is not the most perfect of setters.

    I had no problem with GAGA (1d), keeping in mind that Gordius himself is of the Gaga generation.

    I find 17ac typically iffy, especially the second part. One has to think really deep to find out whether it should be British or Brutish. 20ac, however, made it all clear.

    And in 30d, why is ORCA whales (plural!)?
    Looks like a mistake to me.

    Thanks, PeterO for another fantastic blog.

  41. New to all this and struggling ++ but re 30d there is an island called Orcas so I interpreted the clue as the island losing one second (little time) to give ORCA. But then again what is the plural of whales? Orcae??

  42. Dear darkstarcrashes @33

    Aha thankyou. You are an observant one. That must be cunningly it. However given your qualification, does the puzzle continue. Maybe Gordius knew he was doing ‘Thursday in 3 weeks time’, and counted on.

    So now, why the subtraction at 33?

  43. As Celia Hart @34 alluded, the factors in the clue for 28 are 79 and 153. 79 x 153 = 12087.

    153 is the oddly precise number of large fish pulled ashore by Simon Peter with a fishing net as described in John 21:11. Biblical scholars have been puzzling over that one for centuries.

    Now if we could find 79 in a Nostradamus reference, we would be all be approaching 1 down.

  46. Hi Sil

    I’ve been offline for days following the local theft of masses of copper telephone wire in the Milton Road area.

    I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that Orca must be one of those words like ‘carp’ that have the same plural and singular. One would only say ‘many carp’, or ‘many cod’ for example, rather than ‘many carps’. Whales on the other hand seems to be standard.

  47. Sil@44 – being kind to Gordius here, maybe if you view Orca as a species of whale rather than an individual whale then “whales” as a definition works.

  48. tupus, AndyB, I actually don’t know what’s right or wrong (and I cannot be bothered too much anymore) but Bradman had on the same day in the FT: “Killers for cash, extremists to be put away” clueing ORCAS.

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