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195 comments on “General Discussion”
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OK people, I’ve been doing some thinking as to why you lot can’t see something which to me is totally obvious. And I’ve cracked it! I’m refering to the word RATIO.
The problem does not derive from that word, it derives from the words RELATE, RELATIVE, and RELATIONSHIP. In normal speech these are intimately connected, but in maths this is not necessarilly true, and this is the real problem.
So, imagine one of those desk top books which tries to give the scale of things using odd comparisons. It might, for example, want to indicate how high Mount Everest is using the height of the Empire State Building. These are two random items which share absolutely no RELATIONSHIP. But they can be compared, one RELATIVE to the other, via the RATIO
Mount Everest Height :: Empire State Building Height
This is a perfectly valid RATIO, BUT, there is clearly no meaningful RELATIONSHIP between these two totally independant values, that is the one does not depend upon the other. So, the use of a RATIO does not by itself define a RELATIONSHIP, just because it RELATES two values. That does not, of course, rule out the possibilty that a RATIO can occur within the definition of a RELATIONSHIP, it just isn’t sufficient by itself.
Which is what I mean by saying the real problem lies with the use of other words.
Last February, Brendan (not that one) and I had a discussion here about listing the Guardian setters since the start of their archive. Mitz has a similar list, and comparing mine with his revealed one further error in the list that Brendan and I agreed, i.e. prize no. 23735 (8 Apr 2006) – one of the ones missing from the Guardian archive – is far more likely to be Paul than Araucaria, since Paul had nothing else that week and Araucaria had both the previous and the next prizes. Having updated my list, this is the updated table:
Setter,Total,First,Last
Araucaria,786,26/6/1999,26/11/2014
Rufus,638,28/6/1999,1/12/2014
Paul,567,16/7/1999,28/11/2014
Gordius,316,15/7/1999,17/4/2014
Shed,190,13/7/1999,30/9/2014
Chifonie,187,3/7/1999,20/11/2014
Orlando,174,14/9/1999,22/8/2014
Pasquale,166,2/7/1999,11/11/2014
Bunthorne,146,10/8/1999,4/11/2006
Brendan,138,11/5/2006,7/7/2014
Brummie,134,4/7/2003,29/11/2014
Rover,116,24/6/1999,20/1/2011
Quantum,112,21/7/1999,15/2/2011
Taupi,109,7/7/1999,14/11/2009
Logodaedalus,101,6/7/1999,17/9/2014
Enigmatist,89,26/8/1999,21/11/2014
Janus,89,29/6/1999,30/10/2006
Puck,83,8/12/2006,18/11/2014
Arachne,78,28/6/2006,30/5/2014
Audreus,58,1/10/1999,9/1/2013
Crucible,48,3/5/2008,6/11/2014
Boatman,42,1/10/2008,27/11/2014
Bonxie,40,1/5/2009,5/10/2013
Tramp,39,28/4/2011,13/11/2014
Philistine,39,26/5/2011,1/11/2014
Crispa,39,5/7/1999,6/12/2004
Mercury,36,28/7/1999,26/7/2002
Auster,35,30/5/2000,22/12/2010
Picaroon,33,16/3/2012,15/11/2014
Gemini,32,4/8/1999,19/1/2005
Plodge,22,9/7/1999,1/10/2002
Qaos,21,12/1/2012,19/11/2014
Fawley,20,25/6/1999,11/9/2000
Nutmeg,18,20/9/2013,25/11/2014
Imogen,12,18/10/2003,7/11/2014
Otterden,10,25/10/2013,4/11/2014
None,10,12/7/1999,4/3/2002
Biggles,9,1/4/2000,26/10/2013
Fidelio,6,6/2/2001,23/4/2003
Maskarade,5,24/8/2013,23/8/2014
Hendra,5,29/10/1999,18/1/2002
Egoist,4,18/7/2000,18/7/2003
Enigmatist, Paul & Shed,2,16/2/2011,29/11/2013
Fiore,1,13/10/2009,13/10/2009
Enigmatist & Paul,1,19/8/2009,19/8/2009
Omnibus,1,29/8/2005,29/8/2005
Kookaburra,1,24/1/2004,24/1/2004
Chaucer,1,27/2/2003,27/2/2003
Setter list: Thanks Beery Hiker and Mitz. But shouldn’t you have knocked off the last Araucaria and given it to Araucaria and Friend?
@cholecyst
It’s a good question, and I asked Beery Hiker exactly that. In the end I agreed with him that as the Guardian archive lists it as just Araucaria – giving it a special note – that would be the way to record it.
Having said that, I have to admit that I have recorded two puzzles as belonging to Biggles when technically they were by Enigmatist, Paul and Shed. The first is Araucaria’s 90th birthday celebration (25,247 – February 16th 2011) and the second is the loving tribute following the great man’s death (26,118 – November 29th 2013). The former can be found in the Biggles section of the Guardian archive as well as being listed as being by E, P & S; the latter is officially uncredited, but it was widely reported at the time who was responsible, and I strongly feel that the three surviving Johns felt the Rev’s influence more keenly than ever in compiling it.
There are a few other questions to which I would love to know the answer. The one Omnibus puzzle, it is stated in the archive, was put together using clues sent in by Guardian readers, but who were the mysterious Chaucer, Kookaburra and Fiore who only ever supplied one puzzle each? Was the last anything to do with the late Taupi (real name Albie Fiore)? Who was Egoist? From 2000 to 2003 he or she supplied one puzzle a year on July 18th, and that was it. When did Audreus, Gemini, Logodaedalus and Plodge make their debuts – no amount of searching has found the answer. To date, we know who was responsible for exactly 4,800 puzzles, but frustratingly that means there are 21,631 for whom we don’t have a name – 12 of them since the Guardian archive started up on June 26th 1999! Extrapolating from debut dates and average numbers I can take a wild guess that (for example) over the 60 years he was active Araucaria probably set in the region of 3,200 puzzles for the Guardian, but if we do the same for everyone that has set a puzzle since half way through 1999 there are still well over 14,000 puzzles unaccounted for. Is there some great ledger deep in a vault at Kings Cross that contains the answers?
Apologies – I fully understand that not everyone finds statistics as fascinating as I do…
Mitz..I take my hat off to you – you would have been a star at Bletchly Park. (Sincerely meant!)
It was actually the decision/discussion about the “last Araucaria” on the Guardian website that kicked this off. However controversial it may seem to some of you, I think we have to go with the Guardian on that one and credit Araucaria.
However, Biggles is a very tricky one! If we count the Enigmatist, Paul & Shed ones, where does that leave the one that was credited as Enigmatist & Paul? The only one where I ignored the Guardian’s own designations was the Araucaria tribute that Mitz refers to above, and although that officially has no setter, the setters did list themselves in the final clue.
Thanks to Mitz for helping to resolve the minor discrepancies between our lists.
I should also have mentioned that Mitz told me how to find number 23735 – which is definitely a Paul, and has mysteriously been filed in the Guardian archive as prize puzzle number 1 here:
http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/prize/1
It has a 19×19 grid which no doubt caused a few software problems, and on the page that shows the grid all of the clues are blank, but you can read them on a separate page by clicking the link in special instructions (there also appears to be an error in the grid between clues 35 and 36)…
If I remember correctly, the 19×19 Paul prize puzzle number 1 wasn’t a regular prize puzzle, but rather what turned out to be a one-off special jumbo that appeared in a puzzle supplement. There would presumably have been a regular prize puzzle number 23735 as well on that day (Sat Apr 8 2006), but that puzzle doesn’t seem to have made it to the archive for some reason. And it might not be a Paul one at all. The following Saturday (Apr 15) was Easter Saturday, so would have had an Araucaria special, but the link to that puzzle in the archive appears to be broken.
The plot thickens!
If you go to the Guardian archive and search for Prize puzzles set by Paul during April 2006 it returns two results: the strange “Crossword No. 1” that BH describes above and “Crossword No. 23735” which just leads to a broken link. Both are dated 8th April 2006.
As Pandean says, Araucaria set the Easter prize puzzle on April 15th 2006, (except that the archive in this section has gone screwy saying it was on Friday 14th – that day it was really Chifonie) and also the May Bank Holiday weekend prize two weeks later which is available.
23735 on 8/4/2006 was a Paul. It had a standard size grid with 28 clue places. I got 6 in (Was early in my cryptic answering days)
Hi del Giudice
Thanks for your comments on the FT puzzle today. As I said, it seemed more appropriate to respond to them here, since I didn’t do today’s puzzle. [I’m basically a Guardian reader / solver but, since discovering this site, I do the other puzzles when I have the time / inclination [and we had a Don puzzle over there yesterday!] – but I do enjoy reading the blogs and this one certainly rang a bell.
Welcome to the site – and congratulations! If you really are that new a solver, it’s remarkable that you’re moving on to the Listener and Genius already.
In the meantime, I hope you’re aware, since you enjoyed the Arachne puzzles so much, that all Arachne’s Guardian puzzles are available here:
http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/crosswords+profile/arachne
and, if you need the blogs, you can get them by typing ‘Arachne’ into the Search box in the right hand column on this site.
[I almost envy you – and promise you won’t be disappointed.]
Please keep commenting!
Many thanks for your kind comments, Eileen – I’ll certainly keep coming back to this site, which I’m finding invaluable as I explore the relatively new world of cryptic crosswords.
I did a Phi crossword today in the ‘cheap’ version of the Independent, the I. This is obviously not the same crossword that the Indy published today but has it appeared in the Indy previously, does anyone know ?
It would be good to read a blog about it if such exists.
I also do the Guardian Weekly crossword, which is a re-print of one that appeared in the main paper.
Many thanks !
Hi paul8hours
The crossword in the ‘i’ is a recycled puzzle from the Independent about five years ago. We have blogged it previously. You will be able to find a link to it here: https://idothei.wordpress.com/
Many thank Gaufrid !
Request for help with a clue from a novel
Hi all,
a friend of mine found a cryptic crossword clue in a novel that she was was reading, and she has asked me to solve it (ha!).
Needless to say, I cannot solve it, so I’m posting it here in case any of you can.
I need to point out that the novel describes the clue as one that its central character had been looking at and failing to solve for 30 years(!), and that the novel never gives an answer for it.
i.e. it may well be a non-solvable clue that the author has put in to vex people.
Anyway, for anyone who fancies a challenge, the clue is:
Hark – a twist in the road, I perceive.
The novel says that the answer is an 8-letter word (without giving any of those 8 letters).
I will be very grateful (and impressed) if anyone does answer it.
Cheers,
Cass.
Hi Cass,
The novel in question is “The Fifteen Lives of Harry August” by Claire North. It is a strange story of a many who lives the same life repeatedly, from birth to death, except that with each new iteration the memories of the previous life remain intact. Regarding the crossword clue, it is worse than being something he has been trying and failing to solve for 30 years – he in fact first encountered it several lives ago! From chapter 46:
“I flicked through the newspaper on my lap, but had read it some few lives ago and grew irritated by its naive coverage of events yet unfolding. The crossword in the back frustrated me – I had answered nearly every clue three lives ago, when I attempted this same crossword during a break from the Europe desk at the Foreign Office, and three lives ago I had been stumped by the very same clue which now I could not penetrate: “Hark – a twist in the road, I perceive”, eight letters and, I was infuriated to find, as impossible now as it had been those centuries before. Maybe, for one life only, I could be the man who wrote to the newspapers to complain.”
I fear that it is, like Lewis Carrol’s “Why is a raven like a writing desk?”, a riddle without an answer – it appears to have been invented by the author to look like an authentic cryptic clue without actually being one. Surely if it was the last solution of a real puzzle to be filled in the narrator would have given us the crossing letters!
Correction: the novel is called The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August.
If we’re allowed to mess with the numeration and assume some slightly dodgy cluing, there’s a case to be made for MIND’S EYE.
MIND[Hark] + S[a twist in the road] + EYE[homophone of I]
That would work better with “I perceived” instead of “I perceive”, but the author might not be a stickler for such things.
We’d also have to accept either a dubious &lit for the definition or “I perceive” doing double duty.
Does anyone do the Guardian puzzles on an Android device? For several years I have used the Opera browser to access and solve Guardian cryptics as well as the Everyman. Opera is the only Android browser I have found that properly renders the puzzle. Most impoetantly, it is also the only browser that advances cels after you enter a letter. Until the latest update that is. Now it fails to advance so all letters are entered in a single cell unless you manually tap the next cell after each letter. In this regard it is now like every other browser I have tried.
Dolphin browser will advance properly but it has a host of other problems with the Guardian puzzles not the least of which is selecting a different cell from the one you tap.
Chrome works great on desktop/laptop but not on Android Tablet. If anyone can recommend a browser for Android that provides proper functionality I would be eternally grateful.
I have the same problem with Opera on Android. My only workaround is to use the Cheat button to enter answers, but that gives me occasional surprises when I guess entirely wrong.
Just wondering if anybody knows who compiles the “Gemini” cryptic crosswords published in Australia. Google leads me to a pair of previous Guardian compilers, but I can’t find them in the archive to compare. Unfortunately these crosswords are always clued like a “Rufus”, which is why I download my daily fix from the Guardian website instead. (Guardian crossword used to be published in Australian newspapers but they’ve had to drop it since the Guardian introduced an Australian online edition)
Hi David
It is possible that they are recycled Guardian puzzles but it also possible that it is a different pair of setters who have chosen the same pseudonym. Some information about the Guardian pair can be found here:
http://bestforpuzzles.com/people/g.html#Gemini
Gemini puzzles can be found in the Guardian archive, eg:
http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/22522
If you click on the link associated with ‘Gemini’ on that page you will get a list of all the Gemini puzzles in the archive.
Did anyone else have trouble loading today’s Prize 26,537 as the .pdf? I had to use the ‘print’ version instead.
Yes. PDF was blank barring the solution to last week!
I too had to print the “Print” version. But that printed with the bottom right squares of the grid with blanks in the wrong places!
Fixed now although they have yet again forgotten to edit out their own note in the title. (“DO NOT USE without editing the layout”)
I think they recruit these people with a view to maintainng the “Grauniad” reputation for layout accuracy. 😉
Robi, Brendan – There have to be some advantages to actually paying for the paper (though the holiday prizes have less scribble space that the normal crosswords, and I needed another sheet of paper to keep track…)
I’ve been an enthusiastic ‘dipper in’ to this great site for several months now and I love the scope and helpfulness of it. This is my first contribution, except it’s not really a contribution, but a question.
I have been checking out the early Guardian Quiptics recently, and I find I can solve and parse 99% of the clues. there is one, however, in Quiptic 22 – ‘Recover from river in dreaming sleep (6’.
The answer is ‘REDEEM’ which I guessed using the crossers. For the life of me, I can’t parse it and I would really appreciate an explanation.
Thanks in anticipation.
JB
Hi John @28
It’s DEE (river) in REM (dreaming sleep {rapid eye movement}).
Thanks Gaufrid. Why didn’t I see that?!!
Issue with new versions of Chrome and/or Java.
During the week, Java simply stopped working in Chrome. This stopped access to Indy and Guardian Genius (and lots of other things I was doing for work!). This seems to be a general thing that has arisen during April 2015.
I found this page:
https://java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml
and had to action the bits under section “Enabling NPAPI in Chrome Version 42 and later” (whatever that means) to get things working again.
To get the Independent crosswords or Guardian Genius you also have to put the website in the Java “Exception site list”:
From the Java program group, run “Configure Java”.
“Security” tab.
“Edit site list” to include trusted sites.
I have http://www.independent.co.uk/ and http://www.theguardian.com/ in there amongst others.
I would recommend Downloading the latest Java version otherwise it complains all the time.
This is a bit of a pain, and when installing I always ensure I remember to uncheck the appropriate tickbox to avoid installing the annoying “Ask” toolbar.
Hope this helps
Beermagnet if you go to the Advanced tab of the Java configuration thingy, scroll right to the bottom and under Miscellaneous select the Suppress sponsor offers… box you’ll not have to remember to untick the Ask bit again.
And, unless you use other Java sites a lot it is best to only enable Java content in the browser (on the security tab) when you actually need it.
re. Independent Crossword
I’ve told Java to allow the Independent and I click Run when asked. Java does its big-wheely clock patience thingy. Then all I get are the Check/Reveal Letter/Reveal ‘buttons’, top left, a few clues at the bottom and a big empty space with the words, “Wrong size”, about where 1 across would be in the non-existent (wrong-sized?) grid.
I have no idea what “Wrong size” means or what I should do about it.
Hi Jan
I seldom visit the Indy website these days because I use Crossword Solver, but I have just accessed today’s puzzle without any problems (using IE11 and the latest version of Java).
As I cannot replicate the problem it is not possible for me to suggest a solution. However, someone else may be able to come up with something but it would help to know which browser you are using when receiving the ‘wrong size’ error.
Hi Gaufrid
Thank you for your help. Crossword Solver stopped working for me several weeks ago which is why I tried the Indy site when I got back from holiday. I suspect that there is some sort of glitch in my computer.
Your response is much appreciated.
Me, again – I have just checked. I have IE11 and the latest Java. Hopefully someone will suggest a solution.
I’m not sure where is the most appropriate place to ask if and when there is going to be a blog today for the Nutmeg puzzle. It seemed to me to be fun, but was also simple: still deserves a blog though!!
For a while now Crossword Solver has not automatically downloaded the current day’s Indy Cryptic and it has been necessary to supply the correct URL – ie with the appropriate date.
This spreadsheet will do the job in only a couple of clicks.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/246436788/Indy-Opener.ods
It’s for OpenOffice Calc which is a free download – you’ll need Java to be working OK with it too I think.
Ideally have windows opening .bin files with Crossword Solver. That is most easily sorted out in Windows Explorer.
Maybe save the file on your DeskTop.
To run it:
Double click the file – that should open it in Calc
Click the button – there’s only one.
That should bring up a dialog which will take you into Crossword Solver in one more click if you’ve set that as the default app for .bin files – if not you have to choose that in the dialog.
I don’t have full Excel on this machine so I don’t know how it’ll go in Excel but it’s so basic that I can’t imagine much change (if any) being needed.
Enjoy! – any problems please advise here.
Re above – I forgot to say – this one works via FireFox – I imagine it would be easy enough to doctor it for a different browser if you don’t have that one installed.
Thank you for that, JollySwagman.
I’ve rejigged the file (same name and location) a bit – it should now be browser-independent.
It just invokes the file which, being remote, gets opened by the default browser which, unable to handle such files calls the Windows default app for that file extension. So if those defaults are in place it should work. If not feel free to fiddle with it. I won’t change it again.
Useful discussion of the expectations that the Guardian Crossword should comply with the Guardian Style Guide as regards references to race, gender, disability, etc – http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/27/when-crossword-clues-clash-with-the-guardian-style-guide
Oops – I did change it – ie the Indy Opener in #38 above.
If you made a local copy suggest grab a fresh one.
There was a problem with single figure days of the month caused by Calc needing “&” for text concatenation – not “+”; for the latter it didn’t signal an error but just did nowt.
Oh well – it worked for a while.
Now they’ve shifted everything around and it looks like they’re using different software altogether.
Raincoats on – raincoats off.
It’s working again – but probably not for long. They must have reinstated the old set-up (in part at least) while they tinker with the new one.
Newspapers don’t seem to run the way normal IT does – ie no test environment – they just put out gimcrack updates and wait for the complaints to come in to tell them what’s wrong – whereas in a well-organised IT dept the procedure is.
Create gimcrack update
Have glorified clerks test it to death
Roll it out
Wait for the complaints to come in
Roll it back
But at least they usually have the back-out procedure ready ahead of time. One has the feeling that the Indy folk (no different from other papers) are just flying by the seat of their pants the whole time.
Hi all, I just tried the G beta version. Very trendy lack of capitals 😉
I have always printed crosswords out to solve in the bar and this has been fine for years. Now on my first attempt on the beta, using both Firefox and Chromium, there is insufficient space printed between the across and down blocks of clues such that, in today’s Cryptic (26672) for example, the tail of the first line of 17 across is overprinted by the sequence number of 13 down. It needs 3 or 4 more spaces between the 2 blocks of clues. The across block is indented in relation to the grid by – you guessed it – 3 or 4 characters. I’m posting here after failing to find anything about this problem with various searches.
Thanks for any help or observations.
Stan
Dear Muffin,
I am a 68 year old Englishman living in southern Spain, and the Caribbean (Grenada). I love music, (pretty much all types with the exception of Counrty and Western. But my first loves are classical and Jazz. I actually hate John Coltrane because he reminds me every day of what a rubbish saxophone player I am. My wife and I sing in choirs, and this is a wonderful way to integrate into a small Spanish village. A very good friend is a lover of Folk Music and he would agree with everything you have written about KF. He calls her singing ‘Plum Coloured” and alludes to what BNTO suggested that her style is out of date! Maybe, but if there is a heaven I will be queuing up to hear her and JC playing and singing together. Well I guess I won’t because for all my many sins I will be going downwards!! When it comes to folk music my bete noire is singers who (like Bert Jansch) affect a little sob in every other word – I call it affectation and it winds me up – but don’t get me wrong his guitar playing is up there with Augustin Barrios (Mangore), Hendrix and well maybe Tapajos!! I heard Blow The Winds Southerly, first with KF singing, so like you with Janet Baker and DLVDE I will need to educate myself on your preferred version of BTWS.
Oh one final confession, I am a nutter for poetry and so when Spanish poetry (maybe Garcia Lorca) meets folk singing (Flamenco) I really get a high!!
I will now go and finish (I hope) the Prize Crucible around a theme that must interest both of us!! See you in the posts!!
David
Hi again coltranesax
I have pretty much the same tastes in music as you. I love classical music, though not “classical” in the strictest sense all that much – pre-classical, romantic and (surprisingly?) minimalist are my favourites. I have been interested in folk music from quite a young age, and played in a Steeley Span ripoff band in my late teens and early twenties (competent, but not very original).
Do try to listen to June Tabor – my absolute favourite. Here’s one track, though I suspect, from your comment about “sob at the end of the line”, you might not like it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3W7_DnqYYs
You didn’t say if you had come across the story about the engineer negating the diminuendo?
P.S. easiest Prize ever?
Just thought I’d join in as I did stick my oar in previously.
My tastes in classical range from Early Music right up to Romantic. Although I love most of the first half of the 20th Century I find the later stuff very difficult to get on with. (Excluding Minimalism which on the whole I like. Particularly Glass and Adams)
Although I have tried I cannot appreciate Britten who seemed to get worse the older he got. (I actually half believe he was taking the p*** with some of his later stuff and laughing at the gullibility of his audience. His stuff for Peter Pears makes me feel physically sick!)
I have phases when my favourites change. I’m probably just coming out of an obsession with Strauss’s 4 Last Songs. I never could decide between Schwarzkopf, Popp, Studer or Janowitz. (I love Spotify). Although Studer would probably just be my favourite.
It was actually Muffin I think who mentioned Janet Baker although by chance she is my favourite Mezzo.
I think the thing that puts me of KF is that although she is obviously good to my ear her voice sounds “trained” whereas someone like Callas or Baker just make a heavenly “noise” and make it sound easy. Perhaps it’s the recording quality. (I know I’m contrasting a Mezzo, a Soprano and a Contralto but in this respect I don’t think that matters.)
Finally I would like to modify my “I hate jazz” statement. A more accurate statement would be I love jazz for about 5 minutes and then I get bored. Another 10 minutes and I’m starting to get irritated. (Different strokes for different…….etc)
Muffin and Brendan
Muffin, I loved the June Tabor song you sent me. I found none of the affected singing I dislike: for that, try this, by Nick Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2PxsHBv0ps
In fact one would have to be devoid of a pulse not to enjoy Ms Tabor in this reflective mode!! By the way Muffin, I can only find KF singing Blow The Winds Southerly on you tube; can you direct me to a more folky version?
Good to hear from you as well Brendan. It would seem that we three have much in common musically and if either of you were pleased with yesterdays cricket result but dumped in the slough of despond by Chelsea today, then we have even more!! I mentioned I have wide musical tastes, although I do have a bit of a problem with Minimalism, which you both enjoy. There are always exceptions however, and Arvo Part I love!
The disc I would save from the waves on Kirsty Young’s Desert Island Discs, would be an answer in the last Prize Paul: the B minor Mass. In fact if I could only listen to one composer for the rest of my life it would be J.S. Bach. Interesting that you like 20th Century music, I enjoy the second Viennese School especially Webern whose ‘drops of blood’ music I find infinitely refreshing!
As I mentioned in my last post we live in Andalucia, I have always enjoyed Flamenco, not the dancing so much, but the singing; which really moves me. This is coupled with a love of the poetry of Federico Garcia Lorca, whose verse and collections of ‘folk verse’ are widely used in Flamenco singing. Just in case you want to try some, you might like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4GGzy2FcP4 It is not everybody’s cup of tea so don’t be afraid to tell me what you really think!!
Enough for now!! Oh and I won’t be listening to today’s prize theme, tonight; and yes, the puzzle was ridiculously easy!!
David
PS Muffin. No I had not heard the story of the sound engineer and the diminuendo, but it is lovely, thanks. In a book I read about KF, she apparently was overcome by emotion singing the Abschied, finishing in tears and omitting the final ‘ewig’. Apologising after to Walter for her unprofessional behaviour, he answered, “my dear Miss Ferrier, if we were all such artists as you, we would all have been in tears”. I guess that can be read two ways, but I’m sure Walter, who appeared to idolise Ferrier, meant it in the nicest possible way!!
You have a good point about BTWS, coltranesax – I can’t find a convincing folky performance on YouTube either. The song seems to have been appropriated by the “art set” (I did find a folk guitarist/singer, but I won’t post it as 1 he was male and 2 he was terrible).
Hit me in the solar plexus with Nic Jones, though – in my top five performers (such a shame about the car crash).
Best wishes
Chris
btw love “Four last songs” – I have Jessye Norman and Soile Issikovsky (or similar!) recordings. Favourite Strauss song would have to be “Morgen”, though. I love V-W’s songs too – especially “On Wenlock Edge”.
Thanks for the flamenco link, but really not my taste at all.
Chris,
Yes Flamenco is an acquired taste. If you live here for any length of time it kind of gets absorbed into the blood. But it helps to speak Spanish and I don’t know if you do, and to know something of the history of this region.
The Four Last Songs Of RS are a joy. I have only the Jesse Norman recording but it is beautiful in the extreme!!
I recently discovered the 4 Serious Songs of Brahms. This his Opus 121 is among his last works. Do you know them? I was, as the kids say, ‘gob smacked’ to discover that one of my favourite composer’s had written these jewels and I had managed to reach 68 years of age before I found them. Again KF gives what many testify to be definitive performances, but if you do not have your own recording there are several to choose from on YouTube!!
Quickly back to Nick Jones. My friend who ‘educates’ me in folk was at a folk festival at Cambridge?? where a partly recovered Nick Jones and his son played and sang his old songs. My friend was ecstatic after the event!! The accident was indeed a tragedy and I understand he has now given up performing completely!!
David
Hi coltranesax
No, I don’t know the Brahms songs – to be honest, apart from the German Requiem, I don’t associate Brahms with vocal writing. Perhaps I’ll look them out.
btw I do make an exception on C&W. Have you heard the Daniel Lanois-produced Emmy-Lou Harris albums? (Wrecking Ball and Red dirt girl) – they are worth a listen in my opinion.
Busy week ahead – it might be a few days before I check back in again.
Hi Muffin
I solved it pretty straightforwardly and did not notice any alternative along the way. A friend recently suggested it sometimes happens but my experience is that one of the apparent possibilities leads to a dead end.
I can send you my numbers if you like.
Hi Tupu
Thanks for your response.
As far as we can see:
top middle square, middle and top must be 2 and 5
top right square, left middle and top must also be 2 and 5
However either way round seems to work.
Sorry – spotted the mistake! I must make my numbers clearer.
Hi muffin @58
You have drawn me into doing the sudoku, which I normally only do at weekends!
I’ve gone through it and come out with a unique solution. I agree that top middle square, middle and top must be 2 and 5; but for the right-hand top square I have, from top left 2 4 6, 9 5 7, 8 1 3. i.e. I don’t have 2 and 5 in the middle: 2 is top left, 5 is middle middle.
Oh – I see that you’ve sorted it.
Thanks drofle
I had managed to fill in the top right hand square so ineptly that I was reading it as a 4 in one direction and a 9 in the other!
………and neither was correct!
Hi Muffin
Good. I Think I should have said that neither of the two apparent solutions should turn out to be correct.
Just thought I’d comment on the final version of the Guardian new crossword page.
I think they’ve done an excellent job. They even listened to my comments on the Anagram Helper whcih is now just as good as the old one.
It’s better than before in my opinion and even works on my smartphone which is a big bonus.
coltranesax @ 55
I’ve been a little obsessed with the Strauss 4 Last Songs for about 18 months now since I too discovered them late.
It’s a pity you only have the Norman version on Philips I presume. I find this a reasonable rendition but a little flat emotionally.
The classic is of course the Schwarzkopf version on EMI although this is just a little too legato for my taste and I’m not sure about the recording quality.
My favourite 3 recordings are (in ever changing order)
Janowitz on Deutsche Grammophon (Karajan , Berlin Phil)
Popp on Warner (Tennstedt, London Phil)
Studer on Deutsche Grammophon (Dresden Staatskap, Sinopoli)
Avoid the Kiri version!
Don’t know if you’re aware but when you look at this website on an Android tablet the number of the posts doesn’t appear, so when a later post references a previous comment you can’t easily tell which one
simonc
Please see comment #27, and my reply at #28, here.
Dear Eileen,
I was fascinated by the webpage to which you directed us folk in your blog on the Rufus puzzle 26730. The blog there is a Oxford dictionaries one and in it is a link to another entry on the same site where they list some words which should never be spelled -ize but always -ise the link is
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/ize-ise-or-yse
The problem for me is that it is not an exhaustive list and although there is guide a word like criticise which does contain -cise which is cited there as meaning cutting. I am unsure in this case whether it qualifies.
Otherstuff
Hi Otherstuff
Oh dear, you might be sorry you started this. 😉
When I said in my comment ‘see the article’, I meant the link which you mention – which I’m afraid you have misread. It reads, “For example: -cise (meaning ‘cutting’) in the word excise; -prise (meaning ‘taking’) as in surprise; or –mise (meaning ‘sending’) as in promise.”
[Donning my dusty Latin teacher’s hat]: Excise’ coms from the Latin word ‘excido, excidere, excidi, excisum’, to cut out, so ‘[c]ise’ is an essential part of the word, unlike ‘criticise’, which you mention, where the ‘ise’ ending is simply tacked onto ‘critic’, cf ‘dramatise/ize et al, that we were discussing on Monday – so it can be criticize or criticise.
I hope that makes sense!
Thank you very much indeed Eileen. I have to think – silly me, I was fooled by the fact that the final c in critic changes from a K to an S.
Thanks again
Can anyone help me understand this Guardian clue (21,620) from 1999?
4d He is not yet a Master of martial arts (8)
http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/21620#4-down
Boris @71
“He is not yet a master of martial arts (8)”
It’s obviously alluding to a BA not yet being an MA, but it would make more sense to me if it read “marital arts”. Perhaps someone thought it was yet another Grauniad misspelling and ‘corrected’ it?
Sil (Guardian 17 Dec 2015 @97)
Many thanks for your suggestion. I would love to hear your views on the topics that you and I have written about in the Guardian blog (or blogs).
I have solved cryptic crosswords on and off for x years (where x is large) but have been doing the Guardian crosswords, most days every week, for just 2 to 3 years. I have ‘grown’ into them and just recently completed them for 13 consecutive days, for the first time – until the one with KEN BARLOW in it came along recently. [I have actually heard of Ken Barlow, but I missed the ‘Street’ reference (indicated as ‘street’ in a fair but misleading way), and to this day I don’t know whether KB is the actor or the part!]
I have always enjoyed your posts, and you seem to me to be in the company of what I call the ‘super solvers’, who solve every crossword in a relatively short time and take it in turns to blog the solutions. I’m not there yet – in either capacity!
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Have any of you found what the Grauniad has done with web page with useful crossword e-addresses, editors blog etc etc?
Derek
I think this is what you want (if you scroll down far enough):
https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords?view=classic
Thanks for that. Maybe they told us and I missed it, but that URL doesn’t look like something you would guess at if you didn’t know.
Those links are on https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords scroll to editor’s update.
A NOTE ON HOMOPHONES
On the pages of the Guardian cryptic blogs the subject of homophones comes up quite frequently, and this is a note from a contributor to some of those debates.
I’m not hung up on the word ‘homophone’. Setters don’t use the word themselves (obviously). Something like a homophone is indicated when we see ‘say’, ‘hear’, ‘sounds like’, ‘calling’, ‘on the radio’, or any of a number of other such terms.
My standpoint is not a liberal one and is based on what I would allow in my own crosswords, which is in turn based (probably) on my own inability to detect or think of words that sound ‘similar to’ but not the same as the given word.
A recent example is EXETER, which was the answer to a clue. To me, the only similar-sounding word is ‘exiter’ – a made-up word that is nevertheless perfectly well understood and pronounced. The clue asked for a similar-sounding word to EX-SETTER (being what Boatman would be when he retires). Many people, even those who share my common SE England accent, think these words sound similar, and EXETER can readily, if not immediately, be deduced from EX-SETTER. Unfortunately I’m deaf to this possibility because of the three clear differences in the sounds of these words when spoken. (This limitation on my part may well, incidentally, be due to an interesting combination of physiological and mental factors.)
I got the answer easily enough (who wouldn’t with E-E-E- and half a clue to help you?), but at the speed of thought typically needed to analyse cryptic clues I struggle in less favourable circumstances. Having got the answer I eventually saw what Boatman was getting at, and I then experienced not the joy of discovery but a little irritation! I would be perfectly fine with homophones like BUY/BYE, DUAL/DUEL and even MAGNET/MAGNATE, but not the example just given.
Some time ago there was a different example that revolved around the similarity (or difference) in sound between a pair of words like FOUGHT and FOOT. Please bear with me and think of the SE England pronounciations of these words if you are not a native!.
Solvers correctly inferred that the answer sounds like FOOT. I hear less difference between FOOT and FOUGHT than I do between EXETER and EX-SETTER (this might surprise some people), but I would still never think of FOUGHT as an answer in this case, and the point was debated on the day. Phonetically, the vowel sounds in FOOT and FOUGHT are indeed quite similar, but we all know they are distinct. A more subtle but relevant point is that the lengths of the vowels in the two words is slightly different with many or most speakers, FOUGHT being longer.
I now happily accept where I stand on homophones and similar-sounding words and will no longer waste space or test the patience of other solvers by criticising clues where a homophone-type of device is used but doesn’t quite make it in my opinion.
Yet again today we have an excellent puzzle by Otterden spoilt for me by the scientific illiteracy in 17d. It made the clue unsolvable for a scientist without recourse to ” I suppose since I can’t make watt work it must be sometng else and since I know the correct answer does not fit I have no idea what wrong answer is to be used”
The unit of power is the watt. The volt is a unit of potential difference – the amount of push the electric current is being given if you like. It is a common misapprehension but one that should be picked up by editors. Surely there is a process for checking technical and scientific accuracy?
Is this another example of the widespread acceptance of scientific or mathematical ignorance?
I’ve only just come across Alan’s interesting post on homophones. I wonder what he’ll make of 6 down in Times Jumbo 1196. It’s still a live puzzle as I write so I won’t go into detail, but when finally saw how this worked I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry!
cruciverbophile @80
I don’t often come to this page – indeed, it is mostly ignored! (As you see, my post on homophones is dated 19 Feb.)
Thanks for your post. I never see crosswords in The Times. I can’t find this one online – I believe they are subscription only – and I don’t buy the paper. I would love to know what 6D is. Can you oblige?
John @79
I hope you see this.
I don’t often come to the General Discussion page but have just noticed your comment posted 4 days ago. I think it was intended to go on the Guardian cryptic crossword blog for 11 March, where it would have been the first comment for the day (at 7.53am).
Your point about watt and volt was much discussed on the Guardian blog, and I was one of the contributors. The consensus, I would say, was that the clue should not have said ‘electric power’. There were good attempts to justify it by saying (for example) that if you reduce the voltage you reduce the wattage.
I would advocate a simple improvement like ‘electric potential’, even though in real life I would more likely say ‘electrical potential’. (Actually I would say ‘voltage’, but in the crossword that would give the game away!)
Alan: the Times clue is:
Expert at escaping said which person had drug bender (7)
The answer’s obvious enough and the homophone clearly indicated but it took me ages to see the homophone itself. You’ll probably spot it right away!
cruciverbophile
Thanks very much. Yes, the answer came to me straight away but not the homophone. After bringing a sledgehammer to it (breaking up the sounds in all possible ways – there are at least six), I finally got it. Thanks again.
John @79
I know I’ve already responded to you on your point about volts and watts, but your other point about checking crosswords for typos and technical errors is at least as interesting and well suited to this General Discussion page.
On the Guardian pages of this site I and others have repeatedly highlighted obvious errors in the two categories I have just mentioned (typos and technical errors). As you can imagine, comments have ranged from straight through humorous to sarcastic and make an interesting read.
I have been observing the situation, as best I can, over the four months Nov 2015 to Feb 2016, although until now I have not posted anything to this website about it. At the end of December I wrote to the Guardian Crossword Editor to inform him of the alarmingly high incidence of errors in the cryptic crosswords, culminating in the following error on 29 December:
The setter, Arachne, had submitted the clue
“Proposal polkaing periodically (4)”
but it was printed as
“Plan polkaing periodically (4)”
giving away the answer in the first word.
In January and February, still on my watch, so to speak, I noticed a dramatic reduction in the incidence of errors in the clues. (I actually lost the sheet I had started for logging them, but there may have been only one on it.) The editor never replied to me, and the change was either coincidental or because he or some-one working for him had started to do basic checks on what came out of the editing and production process.
Referring to ‘volt’ using ‘power’ is a typical example of a technical error, although the blogger for the day and one or two others decided to be lenient about it as I said in my post @82. Some errors I logged were more blatant than that.
Totally groanworthy, isn’t it? I spent some time looking up “deanie” on the net as I was convinced that it must be drug slang for a cocaine binge or something…
@ Alan Browne #85 and on the recent Boatman thread.
I don’t know how the various puzzles editors on the main dailies work – maybe they’re all different from one another – different approaches – different software standards – different views on whose job it is to check for typos – different views on whose job it is to set standards of cryptic grammar, levels of difficulty etc. Crucible (to give him his Guardian name) does the Daily Mail print version every day. Is he responsible for his own stuff or does someone else have an editing role? Other papers have certain days’ slots dished out to specific setters – same question.
As discussed on the other thread – in the newspaper world “editor” is just a rank – a fairly senior one – and most people who hold that appellation aren’t expected to check copy for typos, grammatical errors and the like. That was traditionally the role of sub-editors – and most papers have simply ditched that role altogether – along with copy-takers; in the past a lot of (maybe most) copy was phoned in and typed up by copy-takers. Nowadays it’s expected that copy comes in ready to copy/paste into the issue.
I think if I were a puzzle editor I’d put the responsibility on the setters – and aside from checking for libel and obvious howlers basically leave it up to them; after all the work goes out under their names.
I’d call that team empowerment – but the (entirely unintended) side-effect would be that I could have much longer lunch breaks – which would of course take place in well-appointed hostelries where there would be a good chance of running into real people who did the puzzles (as opposed to commenters with axes to grind) and so find out what genuine solvers really thought of it all.
On that basis maybe I could get all that on expenses – although I think that old Fleet Street practice has died out too.
@cruciverbophile #86 Help, please, I still don’t get it…
Terrapin @88
Just noticed your post. cruciverbophile challenged me to solve this one, and I managed to do it.
The answer is Houdini and the homophone is
Who’d e knee
[Who had] [ecstasy] [bender]
The trouble is, of course, “Who’d e knee?” makes no sense – but the homophone does work.
Thanks for that, Alan @89. I was baffled by it too. The answer was obvious to me, the wordplay definitely not. Yes, @cruciverbophile #86, very much a groaner!
I was out all of yesterday so thanks to Alan for stepping in with the explanation.
JollySwagman @87
Thanks for your interesting response. In a sense, you said it all (from my point of view) when you put:
“I think if I were a puzzle editor I’d put the responsibility on the setters – and aside from checking for libel and obvious howlers basically leave it up to them; after all the work goes out under their names.”
It’s the “checking for … obvious howlers” that was conspicuously absent from Guardian cryptics in the period that I was observing and probably for months before that too. The Guardian crossword editor was variously described in many comments as ‘mythical’, ‘absent’, ‘alleged’ and ‘so-called’.
Howlers can be just typos (I say ‘just’, but in a cryptic crossword correct text is the essence!) or technical errors, where a wrong indication is given, or the wordplay just does not work as intended, however ingeniously it might be defended on fifteensquared!
Both sorts of error occurred with surprising frequency in Guardian cryptics in the latter half of 2015. To repeat something I said earlier, I noticed a possibly coincidental improvement in January and February, and since then I have not been consciously observing, but I don’t think there have been many typos or obvious technical errors.
I hope monitoring and basic checking do take place. Good management of your talented pool of setters should be a requirement of any good crossword editor, and any that tend to leave silly errors in their submissions should receive the right friendly word.
JollySwagman
An addendum to my comment @92.
I forgot to mention in my last para that checking what comes out at proofreading stage is just as important as checking what the setter submitted. The error in Arachne’s crossword on 29 December was not the setter’s fault – it was introduced during the editing and production process.
@Alan Browne — Thank you for ‘who’d e knee’! That is a definite groaner. I had just about made up my mind that it was going to be ‘who’d an e’, and was all set to point out that one E doesn’t make a bender, and perhaps the setter should get out more …
On a different subject – dictionaries. At one stage Guardian crosswords would occasionally be accompanied by a notice recommending the use of Chambers and that is the only one I own. Now on this site bloggers use Collins, COED, and Wikipedia in parsing. Does this reflect a change in Guardian policy or it just the individual blogger’s personal choice?
In practice I only use the dictionary for alphabetical jigsaws and scientific terms – normally only to confirm a guess – so I raise the subject only out of curiosity.
Pino @95
An interesting point, and I would also like an answer to your question on dictionaries from anybody who has some inside knowledge or is on good terms with the Guardian crossword editor.
I can remember the notices that used to recommend Chambers. Some went further and and told you, for example, to “ignore 2 accents” or that “one foreign word and one proper name are not in Chambers 10th Edition”.
My guess is that the absence of such notices now means that compilers do not have to stick to a stipulated dictionary for their puzzles. I have Chambers and Collins at home, and when I used both those sources in support of a recent comment I made on a Guardian clue, another commenter replied with a quote from his SOED to show what I had missed!
JollySwagman (@87 – again)
I have just posted a comment on the Guardian cryptic page for today’s Rufus (@33) and gave an opinion based on what you expressed in your post here – in particular:
“I think if I were a puzzle editor I’d put the responsibility on the setters – and aside from checking for libel and obvious howlers basically leave it up to them; after all the work goes out under their names.”
I hope you don’t mind. I did so because I 100% agree with what you said and it was an appropriate comment to make on today’s crossword.
This is on the subject of Roman numerals – not Roman numerals in general but specifically the Roman numerals for the numbers 49 and 99.
In the Guardian on 17 March Arachne used ‘IL’ as a Roman numeral for 49, and on 23 March Philistine used ‘IC’ as a Roman numeral for 99.
There is no basis for IL = 49 or IC = 99.
One commenter on 17 March quoted Wikipedia to inform us that usage in ancient times varied greatly and remained inconsistent in medieval and modern times. That may be so, but what we have to remember is that Roman numerals are in widespread use today, and the rules for forming them are accessible and clear. They do not allow made-up forms that some people think are ‘logically’ correct, like:
“You just put ‘I’ in front of anything bigger than itself to reduce it by 1”.
According to the rules, 49 is XLIX and 99 is XCIX.
I think the only place you will find the incorrect forms used is in Guardian crosswords.
My reason for thinking it worth putting a note on this subject on this page is that I now advocate acceptance of IL = 49 and IC = 99 in Guardian crosswords. I said as much in a comment posted om the Guardian page for 23 March. I was prompted particularly by a prior comment from Gladys on that day’s blog:
“I think IC for 99 has now gone beyond the reach of correction and become an established crossword convention.”
I agree with her.
I usually make a polite comment on the use of either of the incorrect forms, but in future I will not do so. (Eileen and others will be pleased.)
What I recommend, though, is that you do not pretend that either IL = 49 or IC = 99 is correct. In any serious context if you use IL or IC in this way it will be corrected to XLIX or XCIX (respectively). It is only in the wonderful world of crosswordland that you can get away with the incorrect forms because the best community of solvers you will find anywhere has come to a consensus. The crossword-friendly forms ‘IL’ and ‘IC’ are here to stay.
By the way, anybody who can incorporate XLIX or XCIX in a crossword deserves a special prize.
Alan Browne @ 98
Tixylix is a well-known (= we used it on our boys) brand of cough syrup for babies. I offer it to anyone who attempts your challenge though I’ll complain that it’s too obscure if they do.
For what it’s worth :), as the subject will surely come up again:
Regarding the use of IC for 99:
It was rare, but I found reference in Encyclopedia Britannica to at least one use:
An excerpt from Numerals and Numeral Systems by Professor David Eugene Smith :
“…
4. cI?.I?.Ic for 1,599, Leiden edition of the work of Martianus Capella (1599)
…
4) illustrates the persistence of the old Roman form for 1,000 and 500 and the subtractive principle so rarely used by the Romans for a number like 99;…
“
Thank you Pino and Nregan for your comments.
As you can guess, I don’t come here every day!
I’ve heard of Tixylix but have never seen it printed. (It’s not in our household!)
I followed Nregan’s link to EB. Very interesting. Expert opinion says, then, that the ‘subtractive use of I’ in a number like 100 was in rare use in Roman times.
The only point I would reinforce is that Roman numerals are in current use and there are rules for forming them. As far as I know every number has a unique form except for IV = 4 and IIII = 4, the latter appearing on some clocks (old clocks?). In current usage IC is not an alternative to XCIX.
As you will have noted, I gave way in the end. At least two setters are convinced that the incorrect forms are correct, and solvers on the whole are happy to go along with them. It was a whimsical idea of mine to say what is allowed in crosswordland, and I have undertaken not to appear pedantic in the future.
Alan Browne,
I do not disagree with you at all.
Another example of usage accepted in crosswordland (and other lands) is “ye” for “the”, typically “the old” in a clue. That is, I think, a misunderstanding of the old letter Thorn, which looks like a y, but is really the “th” sound. Imagine how many pubs would have to change names or signs to be hc (historically correct). ?
Nregan
I know what you mean about the Thorn in ‘Ye’. I’ve studied language and linguistics as an amateur for many years.
Incidentally, more than a year ago (I can’t remember more exactly than that) I pointed out the error using ‘IC’ on the Guardian page of this blogging site, and the setter himself replied that he agreed, it was a lesson learned and he would not use that form again.
Alan Browne.
I’ve often wondered, in the context of the ‘ye/the’ thing, how ‘thou’ evolved into ‘you’, which is going in the opposite direction. Is it that ‘y’ and ‘the’ were for a while interchangeable? Was it something to do with printing?
I meant of course y and th. Autocorrect again.
Meg @104
The changes from ‘thou’ to ‘you’ and ‘ye’ to ‘the’ are unrelated, as I understand it, and only the latter has anything to do with printing.
When ‘thou’ and ‘thee’ were current they were used to refer to one person, whereas ‘you’ referred to one or more persons. The move to include the singular meaning into the plural form began in the 13th century, and ‘thou’ and ‘thee’ are no longer current. A similar thing happened in French, but it was not exactly the same because ‘tu’ is still current in certain well-defined contexts (family and friends, to put it simplistically).
The thorn character (‘þ’) is not current any more but was used in writing and, later, printing and indicated the ‘th’ sound. The old word for ‘the’ was ‘þe’, and in script and print it got confused with ‘y’. So instead of ‘þe olde tea shoppe’ it became (carelessly, you might say) ‘ye old tea shoppe’.
I slipped up twice in my last paragraph above. It should read:
The thorn character (‘þ’) is not current any more but was used in writing and, later, printing and indicated the ‘th’ sound. The old word for ‘the’ was ‘þe’, and in script and print ‘þ’ became confused with ‘y’. So instead of ‘þe olde tea shoppe’ it became (carelessly, you might say) ‘ye olde tea shoppe’.
Ok, thanks, I understand now. Incidentally thou and thee, (pronounced thoo and thi), are still very much current in Cumbria. Also thine, and the plural of thoo is thoose. As in:
“Is thoo garn ter t’pub?” (Are you going to the pub?)
or
“Are thoose garn ter t’pub?” (Are you all going to the pub?)
“Ay.”
“Ah’m nit so ah’ll sithee later at thine.” (I’m not so I’ll see you later at your place.)
Takes a bit of getting used to, and my autocorrect is none too happy either.
Meg @108
I forgot that the older forms like ‘thou’ are still current in some dialects and regions: I’m from the south-east but have visited Cumbria many times, albeit without coming across the sort of speech in your example.
Autocorrect can be a pain. I don’t often use it myself – can you switch it off?
It’s more prevalent in the North – Keswick for instance is dialect city. I lived there for 26 years so I got quite fluent. The locals, native born that is, find it useful for talking to each other at the tops of their voices across a crowded pub or market without the tourists being able to understand them. It consolidates the us and them aspect of living in a town who’s population increases from 3,000 in the winter to 30,000 in the summer. It has probably survived because the North was cut off by high passes and impossible roads until the 19th century.
As for autocorrect, yes I probably could switch it off, but then I do find it useful sometimes. I develop fat finger syndrome when I’m tired, especially on this tiny keyboard. That last post though was quite a challenge.
Can anyone help me please? My Father some 40 years ago introduced me to the clue: HIJKLMNO (5). I had assumed it was by Araucaria but am told it is not. Can anyone tell me whose clue it is and what newspaper/magazine it appeared in? Many thanks in advance
David
Following up on PeterO’s observation (in his recent Picaroon blog) about Guardian puzzles now appearing online at 1am UK time:
I imagine the new files are put in automatically by a script or some sort of scheduling software (think app if you must) which would need a minute change to make it happen at a different time.
As every change done so far has resulted in pandemonium they are probably working to a policy of absolutely no change whatsoever. In any case there’s the well-known famous last words in IT – “I’ve just one tiny change to make …”
As far as the puzzles promoting the rest of the online paper goes it doesn’t make a lot of sense in the timezone I live in – not sure what the impact is in the US, the other area into which they’re trying to pitch the online version of the paper.
Pre-breakfast – pre-dodo – early evening etc would seem to be the most appealing time in any particualr timezone. Mid-morning and small hours of the night just doen’t make sense.
S Panza @111 – the trouble is that if it really was 40 years ago there will be no way of searching for it online. Even the admirable Guardian archive only goes back to mid-1999, which was well past halfway through Araucaria’s long career. I can confirm that the clue dies not appear in the Guardian archive.
S Panza @111, beery hiker @113
I have seen the HIJKLMNO clue for water, but much, much more recently than 40 years ago, so what I remember must have been a later appearance of the same idea.
It reminds me of a clue in a Listener crossword from many years ago:
ABCDEFGHIJKLM
the answer being ATOM. It was a themed crossword that was brilliantly executed, the theme being ‘half the alphabet’. The special clues all had answers that could be described as half the alphabet, and as well as ATOM there were ALPH, ABET, and best of all BUCKFASTLEIGH, a town in Devon whose name is made up of exactly half the alphabet.
Sorry this doesn’t help, but I hope you like the further chat!
beery hiker@113 and Alan Browne@114,
Thank you both for your interest but you are both probably correct that there is no way that an online search will give me an answer. I had hoped that someone of about my age, late 60s, might be able to resurrect it from their own memory, but I guess it is asking too much!! Another famous clue, which I think IS Araucaria is Of of of of of of of of of of (10). I have also come across, but I have no idea from where, DEFGHIJKLMNO (5,5).
When my Father died in 2006, I found amongst his possessions a book of 50 crosswords (Daily Telegraph I think) one for every year of the first 50 years of that papers puzzles. The first half at least were so different from what we find today that I struggled to answer more than a couple of clues per crossword.
The internet has spawned a plethora of lists, and I wonder whether there is not a need for something like “100 best cryptic crossword clues”……., well perhaps not. But maybe here, those of us who like to discuss on 225 might designate their own favourite clue. I would start the ball rolling with HIJKLMNO (5)
Finally Alan can you remember how BUCKFASTLEIGH was clued? I’d love to know!!
Again thank,
David
S Panza (David) @115
I don’t remember what the clue to BUCKFASTLEIGH was, but I’m pretty sure all the themed clues were either plain indications of the answers with no cryptic wordplay, like ‘Devon town’ for BUCKFASTLEIGH, or short cryptic definitions. I can’t remember any theme words other than the four I gave you.
I managed to get DEFGHIJKLMNO, having practised on HIJKLMNO, and I’m sure I remember solving the Araucaria clue in the not too distant past. A clue like that would stick in the memory, wouldn’t it?
I’m not very good at remembering outstanding clues over the years. I savour them when they come my way but I don’t have the discipline or foresight to record them, unfortunately.
This is about themes in crosswords.
Themes can make a crossword more enjoyable – or not. One reason (not the only one) why I enjoy Guardian cryptics more than those in The Times (and possibly other national dailies) is that themes are allowed and are indeed fairly common. I find that a well-executed theme makes a crossword more interesting and therefore more entertaining.
I have reservations, though, based on experience that I think is now long enough to allow me to form an opinion and make general comments.
Nearly always, themes that do not pervade the whole crossword are the best. (The obvious exception to this a special crossword where, say, every answer is themed.) A good crossword with good clues would be enjoyable anyway, but a few answers and/or clues connected by a theme can add to the enjoyment and appreciation of the puzzle and even help in solving it – although that could sometimes depend on the choice of theme.
The value of a theme in a crossword becomes debatable when it is allowed to pervade the whole crossword, for example when there are many themed answers and solver effort is also required to discover the theme, or, in general, when a successful solve depends on solving the theme and being able to guess (or just know) at least most of the themed answers.
I would like to highlight Brendan’s puzzle on 16 June 2016 as an example of a well-executed themed puzzle. It was based on James Joyce and Ulysses, but it branched out also into Ulysses Simpson Grant and Homer Simpson. As I noted on the day, my appreciation of the puzzle did not depend on the theme: it just added spice and enjoyment to it.
A theme needs to be accessible to its audience, and in the case of Brendan’s puzzle I think it was. From a personal perspective, I find some themes boring to distraction, and I simply put down a puzzle if the theme is too intrusive and is anything like crooners, soaps, Bond films or most sports (although some pleasant solving time might have passed before the theme showed itself).
Brendan (not that one) commented on the day of Brendan’s puzzle that people are becoming obsessed with themes. Well, themes do seem to be coming up more often now, and commenters sometimes discuss them at length, but I think Brendan’s other point was that the crossword suffers, and the solving experience suffers, if the theme is allowed to make clues too loose or too easy. I would just add that if the theme is too obscure, or simply impenetrable, for some otherwise skilled solvers, that is also not good.
Alan @117
I totally agree with you about the Brendan crossword. There was a lightness of touch which added to the enjoyment of what was not a particularly difficult puzzle.
I do have some doubts about themes though, particularly when quite a lot of general knowledge of the theme is required in order to be able to solve the puzzle at all; this will always result in the “Marmite effect”, depending on whether or not you have the right knowledge.
Ideally the crossword should be solvable without knowing anything about the theme, which should (as with the Brendan one) just add to the enjoyment. THe number of times that posters (myself included) say “I didn’t spot the theme” shows that most compilers are achieving this!
Alan @117 and muffin @118
muffin said “Ideally the crossword should be solvable without knowing anything about the theme”. I would go beyond “ideally” and say it is essential that all the themed clues can be solved from wordplay so that solvers who know nothing about the theme aren’t alienated.
My other peeve about some themed crosswords is that in trying to shoehorn as many themed clues into the grid as possible, setters can find themselves left with spaces which can only be filled by very obscure words. Again, good wordplay can help, but solvers unfamiliar with the theme who are already struggling may not have enough crossers to resolve them.
muffin and jennyk
Thanks for your comments.
muffin
I agree that the innocently negative comment “I didn’t spot the theme” is in fact a compliment to the setter. I often don’t spot themes that appear more readily to some other contributors, but I’m usually delighted to have them pointed out to me on the blog.
jennyk
Your second paragraph describes very well the worst situation (which I have seen!) where the theme is simply too pervasive for the good of the crossword. I don’t enjoy these even if I get the theme.
This is about the dropping of a final ‘e’ when ‘ing’ is added to verbs.
As a lifelong amateur student of language and linguistics, I tend to recognise very easily (1) patterns (or rules) in spelling and pronunciation and (2) the many exceptions to be found in the English language.
There are many verbs ending in ‘e’ where that letter serves to lengthen a preceding vowel, and there are hundreds if not thousands of examples: bite, face, devote, ride, prune, … Without the ‘e’, bite would be bit, etc – the words are both spelled and pronounced differently.
When you add ‘ing’ to any of this vast collection of verbs the ‘e’ can be, and is, dropped because ‘ing’ does the job of keeping the vowel long like it was before: prune -> pruning, for example. With a word like ‘face’, where the ‘e’ also softens the ‘c’ sound, the ‘ing’ suffix in ‘facing’ still keeps the ‘c’ soft, so you can still remove the ‘e’.
‘Singe’ and similar words are different cases. I think I can explain the rules and exceptions for these as well, but I will save that for later if this thread develops.
Thanks for your contribution, Alan. I agree entirely with what you say, but you’ve slightly missed the point of what I was asking, which was “why do you drop the E?” when it isn’t necessary for pronunciation purposes. Is it just to save time and ink?
muffin @122
Perhaps I did miss the point (more than slightly!). The pat answer is “Why not?” – or “Why have an an unneccessary ‘e’ in all the many -ing words that are formed from the -e verbs?”
Logic doesn’t explain it, but economy does, and the simple ‘rule’ (I would perhaps say ‘pattern’) is highly consistent. (Why not save time and ink?)
Hello fellow cryptic crosswords lovers,
I am working for a small company in Cambridge (UK) that is looking to conduct informal one-to-one interviews (ideally face-to-face) with people who enjoy crosswords. Each session is expected to take 30 to 45 mins – you will be reimbursed up to £40 for your time.
The purpose of the research is for us to firstly understand users current behaviours with crosswords.
Secondly, we’ll ask you for feedback on a new crossword-solving product, so that we can understand what needs to be improved.
The research session is expected to start mid-July.
If the above is of interest, can you please complete our short questionnaire so we can determine if the product would be suitable for you: http://goo.gl/forms/eTvbIrfPsfkDuWMi1
All the best,
Helen.
Dear Sloggers and friends. I’m looking to meet solvers in the Liverpool/ Merseyside area since moving here a few months ago. I have always considered solving to be a joint activity yet I have no contacts here for that sort of thing and so I have had quite a period of inactivity lately. I hope some of you out there would like to team up and have a go at the Guardian and FT offerings with me before I become completely rusty. The only crossword I’ve managed to solve in a reasonable amount of time this year has been the Guardian jigsaw special (my favourite). If any of you has an idea of where else I may be able to post this request then I’d be truly grateful. Please do get in touch at psirencrosswords@gmail.com. I look forward to meeting you.
Hi,
I’m having a go at writing a crossword as a present for a relative, and am wondering if anyone would be interested in solving it and giving me some feedback. We’re both solvers primarily of the Guardian cryptic, but I’m still quite new to it all and would appreciate some checking and advice on things like difficulty and quantity of the various types of clue.
My email is ted.crosswords@gmail.com.
Any help would be most gratefully received.
Ted
Should cryptic clues have unique solutions?
On a recent blog [for the Guardian cryptic on 9 September] there was a brief debate on whether a clue should have a unique solution – a topic that has come up before.
Sometimes a clue can have a dual solution unintended by the setter, but this discussion is chiefly about those that are allowed by the setter (and his/her editor) and whose solutions are determined by crossing letters.
A good example of this occurred on 8 September, where Brummie clued SNIP as “Trim back legs.” Without the help of crossed letters, the answer could have been SNIP or PINS. On the 9 September blog, a regular contributor BNTO, in answer to another contributor (muffin) who dared to say that “a clue that doesn’t have a unique solution without the crossers is a poor clue”, said the following:
“As long as the grid has a unique solution the puzzle is solvable.
…
a) The setter takes an empty grid and fills it with words which cross each other.
b) The setter then presents the empty grid to the solver who has to recreate the filled grid the setter came up with.
c) The setter also provides some clues and possibly instructions to enable the solver to come up with exactly the same grid as the setter.”
thus permitting, in his view, any number of dual solutions to clues that are resolved by crossers to make a unique solution to the crossword.
In the more prescriptive era of Ximenes, and Afrit before him, every clue in a cryptic crossword (in contrast to clues in non-cryptic crosswords) was expected to have a unique solution. In his book “Ximenes on the Art of the Crossword” [on page 43 of the 1966 edition] the author quotes his mentor Afrit’s summing up of the clue-writer’s duty:
“I need not mean what I say, but I must say what I mean”
and goes on to explain that a clue should give the solver two separate indications of a clue’s unique solution. (Incidentally, because of his circumlocutory and somewhat quirky writing style, he does so without using the word ‘unique’.)
The consensus today seems to be that it is acceptable for a clue to point to two different answers, the correct one to be determined by the crossers. (In a non-cryptic crossword, of course, it is normal for the intended answer to a clue to be resolved by crossing letters.)
I think BNTO’s succinct statement is right – and incidentally the perfect way to state the whole point of any cryptic or non-cryptic crossword.
However, we can, as muffin did, subjectively state that a clue is ‘poor’ for this reason or that, and one possible reason is that a clue can point to more than one answer until you solve another clue. I think a dual answer is definitely a potential weakness, and if there is more than one in a cryptic crossword (or more than two – you can draw the line anywhere) it can detract from the quality of the puzzle.
Dual (or multiple!) solutions seem to be getting a bit more common. The one on 9 September was MESS HALL, and they occur from time to time in Rufus puzzles, in which some clues are not much different from what you would find in a non-cryptic crossword.
[‘Ximenes’ is the pseudonym of D S MacNutt, and ‘Afrit’ is the pseudonym of A F Ritchie.]
#AB #127
Even though the say-mean/mean-say injunction (from which many corollaries may be drwan) is attributed to him I would hardly describe Afrit and his work as “prescriptive”. Many of his clues (others at the time did this too) contained only incomplete wordplays. Maybe it was thought to be like a game of charades in which the actor might imply: “Well I’ve told you it’s a film and I’ve given you most of it – surely you can guess the rest.”
Why Ximenes, in his notorious 1966 book (the key parts mostly copy-pasted from early competition critiques) referred only to his predecessors in The Observer barred-grid slot and studiously air-brushed out any reference to his contemporaries on eg The Guardian and Telegraph (who by then were miles ahead and had clearly got to grips with what we now consider to be conventional setting) is a question that is well worth pondering over.
JollySwagman @128
Thanks for your comment (and for spotting my post on this thread!).
Ximenes acknowledged both his predecessor at the Observer (Torquemada) and his mentor at the Listener (Afrit) in his book, but I shouldn’t have bracketed Afrit with Ximenes. Both these earlier compilers (to the best of my knowledge) did indeed test the solver with clever clues that were not necessarily complete or rigorous, but my memory of Ximenes and his crosswords (only a few of which I tackled on my own) is that he preached, and practised, the ‘rules’ as described in his book, for example: no indirect anagrams, no filler words, complete wordplay, and freedom to mislead with punctuation and capitalisation.
I actually read the ‘notorious’ book on the Art of the Crossword years ago, and I appreciate what you say about it (and the author). The book is not well written (I was kind when I used the phrase ‘circumlocutory and somewhat quirky’) – you have to work at it to distil the essence of what the author is trying to say. I knew nothing about how the book was cobbled together!
@AB “no indirect anagrams”.
In fact there is no ximenean rule that excludes indirect anagrams – merely one which limits their use.
Eg Ximenes:”I have no objection to an indirect anagram, and I use them myself from time to time.” [elsewhere] “…sparingly”.
You can see some stuff I wrote about it here:
http://www.ukpuzzle.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=916
… most of which consists of Ximenes’s own words, taken from his “slip” comments – which are now fully searchable here:
http://www.andlit.org.uk/azed/search2.php?series=X
One thing that has become clear since the searchable archive came online is that his 1963 book cannot possibly have taken the crossword world by storm. Most of the salient text (the “rules” part) is copy-pasted from earlier slip comments, which crossword insiders (ie most setters at least – Araucaria being one) would have been well familiar with – and not necessarily agreed with.
I would summarise a more general rules as:
Double hops (of word substitution) are only fair if at least one of those substitutions is very obvious – ideally unique.
Oops
rules s/b rule and 1963 s/b 1966 – it was Barnard’s (much better) book that came out in 1963.
JollySwagman @130
Thanks for your very helpful reply. The first of your two links was particularly revealing for me because in my original post I was going by what Ximenes said in his chapter on Cluemanship:
“Secondly – and here, for once, I differ from Afrit – I hate what I call an indirect anagram.”
(his italics), and later in the same paragraph he recounts how he sometimes used indirect anagrams himself in the past, but now:
“My real point is that the secondary part of the clue – other then the definition – is meant to help the solver. The indirect anagram, unless there are virtually no alternatives, hardly ever does. He only sees it after he has got his answer by other means.”
We’ve gone off the topic of unique solutions to clues, but it was my wish to provide a bit of historical context.
As an occasional setter in the past I made it a rule not to have dual solutions (and by that I mean of course not intentionally). I now describe a dual solution as a ‘potential weakness’: if, for example, it crosses a word that also has a ‘weak’ clue it would spoil the fun of solving that cryptic crossword – and that touches on the topic of what the point of the crossword is!
Not a reply to the above thread – just a plea.
Love this site…as someone who usually gets to three or four answers short of a full crossword, I value the parsing – in theory it should be making me improve. So…here’s a plea. Could the i’s everyday and prize cryptics be added to the workload of solvers? I find them of a similar standard to the Guardian – my default crossword – (or harder – eg not on the wavelength of Monk). We have lost the Independent after all!
Hi Sueall
The puzzles in the i are recycled Independent cryptics from about five years ago so we have already blogged them. If you go to the following site you will find a daily post which includes a link back to the original 15² blog:
https://idothei.wordpress.com/
As for the Independent, it’s not totally lost, only the dead-tree version has departed, the on-line version lives on.
This is about top-down and bottom-up solving.
This subject was debated briefly (but quite hotly!) on the Guardian page for 7 October. What it refers to (in case it’s not clear from the terms) is the way a clue is solved – either by guessing the answer and working back through the wordplay to see how the word is made up (top down) or by working out the answer from the wordplay and confirming it from the definition or indication that has been given (bottom up).
Sometimes, by the way, I solve a clue both ways and am not sure which of the approaches got there first. My mind could be working concurrently on a possible clue construction, some wordplay possibly contributing to part of the word, and some answer words that might match the indication given. Just as often, though, or more often, I find myself going down one solution path, and the other one then comes into play to confirm the answer.
Neither term really applies to some types of clue, notably double definitions and cryptic definitions, which are weaker types of clue than the majority of clues thet follow the definition plus wordplay formula. Saying DDs and CDs are ‘weaker’ does not mean they are easier to solve, because many are not. They play their part in a well-designed crossword, and I for one look upon them positively unless there are too many of them or they are too weak (one short DD crossing another, for example).
The ‘debate’ I referred to focused mainly on a particular clue, although others in the same puzzle were also pertinent to the debate. The clue was
“Get rid of old car that won’t start (5)”
and the answer was EXPEL.
As far as I could tell at the time from the comments on the blog, everyone who mentioned how they solved this clue got the answer first from the definition ‘get rid of’ and then confirmed it with the wordplay EX (‘old’) plus PEL (OPEL the car without its first letter). I got it this way too.
The debate revolved around the fairness, or otherwise, of having to know OPEL in order to solve this clue bottom up.
Another clue that was similar in this respect was
“Being useless, essentially without instrument (7)”
the answer being UTENSIL.
Here the part-word that (debatably) required specialist rather than general knowledge was ENS, which I now know means ‘being’ or ‘existence’.
For the record, there were two other clues that I had to solve top-down because the wordplay was too complex:
“Country house like this cut rent, previously (7)”
“Animal lover from country’s said nothing — beast is providing lifts outside (7,2,6)”
to which the respective answers were LESOTHO and FRANCIS OF ASSISI. (The trickier bits were ‘like this’ = SO, ‘rent’ = LET, ‘country’s said’ = FRANCES, ‘providing’ = IF.)
The first (obvious) point I want to make is that the wordplay must be sound. Even though something might be unfamiliar to you (such as ENS meaning ‘being’), the clue is fair, by this basic rule, if the wordplay is correct.
My second and main point is that if two key components of the clue are obscure, that is, generally unknown or requiring specialist knowledge, the clue is unfair. If both ENS and UTENSIL were obscure (for the sake of argument) by this test, the clue would be unfair.
My third point is that I wouldn’t go as far as to say that a clue must be readily solvable bottom up. A solver should expect to find, in a challenging crossword, several instances of having to get a possible answer from guesses and crossers before sussing out all the wordplay, be faced sometimes with an unfamiliar word, and match the wordplay to the answer afterwards if necessary.
My final point is that a setter should keep the number of obscure words in one puzzle to a reasonably low level. It’s impossible to set a limit (I don’t mind ‘a few’), because it depends on what the setter has done to make the puzzle as a whole accessible. It’s up to a good setter’s judgement, as always. I thought the setter (Vlad) got the balance right in the puzzle I have used as my example, as I commented on the day.
Agree on all points Alan. As we all know, the purpose of a cryptic clue (other than CDs) is to provide two possible ways to arrive at the answer. Does it matter which way you use (wordplay or definition) to get there? I don’t think so. In the example you give for EXPEL, I got it from the definition and worked backwards, as I suspect most people did (and on the day Sil confounded the naysayers with an excellent justification for OPEL as “car”). On the other hand, there was a clue in today’s Indy which led to the name of a pop singer. I’d never have got it from the definition since I haven’t a clue who Thom Yorke is, but the perfectly fair wordplay led to the answer so that I could enter it with confidence.
As you say, there shouldn’t be obscurities on both sides of the equation, and that includes puzzles like the Listener: when confronted by a bunch of clues like “Jock’s this inside Spenser’s that = Shakespeare’s the other” I usually decide that it’s beer o’clock.
cruciverbophile @136
Thanks for your response. As you might have gathered, I like analysing crossword solving as well as solving the darn things.
Like you, I much prefer a puzzle to be difficult and fair rather than one that is difficult because it has clues that are doubly obscure.
I got EXPEL the same way as you (and everybody else, apparently). I thought it fair at the time and after all the discussion.
I am sure there are a goodly number of prize crossword winners amongst you. Tell me, has anyone had difficulty getting their promised prize? I was published as the winner of the i prize crossword 1725 of 13th August and despite leaving messages, ringing, texting and e-mailing – no prize forthcoming and, more irritatingly, no response of any sort either. Any advice?
Muffin @56 and others.
I remember an episode of “In All Directions” the 1950s Third Programme show in which Peter Ustinov and Peter Jones went on a perennialsearch for Copthorne Avenue. They tuned into the Third Programme to hear a typically plonking announcement “That was a performance by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau accompanied by Gerald Moore of Four Serious Songs by Brahms. Next Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, accompanied by Gerald Moore will perform Four Even More Serious Songs by Brahms” which, probably unfairly, summed up his vocal works for me though I enjoy his orchestral music.
Incidentally G.B.Shaw, under his nom de plume of as Corno di Bassetto, wrote in his review of the first British performance of Brahms’ German Requiem that it was “music to be borne with equanimity only by the corpse”. But you probably knew that already.
Comment is over a year late which is a long time, even by my standards.
A question to throw to the crowd regarding ‘letter selection’ wordplay etiquette. To illustrate my pickle I’ve made up a sample clue fragment:
E.g. “The lasts of Paul’s pasta salad…”
Would this yield LAD or SAD?
On the one hand, the last of PAUL is L, but the last of PAUL’S is S!
Pedantic I know, but I’d like to know what the consensus is.
Sholps @140
SAD. That’s not a comment on your comment but my answer to your question!
As “Paul’s” would count as 1 word of 5 leters if it was an answer-word itself, it should be treated the same if it is part of the wordplay, or at least this sort of wordplay.
As you know, though, rules are sometimes broken, and setters are often ‘guilty’ of loose clueing, particularly when they are drawn to a smooth or witty surface reading for a clue.
Alan B @141
You’re a top LAD, many thanks!
Gaufrid, I wonder whether this would be more suitable in Announcements.
Wikipedia says, as part of its policy statement …
“Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That’s our commitment.”
I think we would all agree that is an admirable commitment.
Many of us use Wikipedia when solving and bloggers give Wiki-links in the blogs. It is a non-profit site, with a no advertising policy, which, once again, needs donations to survive. A donation window is popping up when you visit and I, for one, think it’s worth a few quid.
Updated version of the list I posted @2:
Setter, Count, First, Last, 2016
Araucaria, 785, 26/06/1999, 26/11/2014, 0
Rufus, 726, 28/06/1999, 19/12/2016, 41
Paul, 675, 16/07/1999, 17/12/2016, 51
Gordius, 316, 15/07/1999, 17/04/2014, 0
Chifonie, 218, 03/07/1999, 20/12/2016, 13
Shed, 205, 13/07/1999, 25/11/2016, 6
Pasquale, 190, 02/07/1999, 13/12/2016, 11
Orlando, 180, 14/09/1999, 10/06/2016, 2
Brummie, 163, 04/07/2003, 15/12/2016, 14
Brendan, 152, 11/05/2006, 10/12/2016, 12
Bunthorne, 146, 10/08/1999, 04/11/2006, 0
Rover, 116, 24/06/1999, 20/01/2011, 0
Quantum, 112, 21/07/1999, 15/02/2011, 0
Taupi, 109, 07/07/1999, 14/11/2009, 0
Puck, 107, 08/12/2006, 21/12/2016, 10
Logodaedalus, 101, 06/07/1999, 17/09/2014, 0
Arachne, 97, 28/06/2006, 20/10/2016, 9
Enigmatist, 96, 26/08/1999, 12/08/2016, 3
Janus, 89, 29/06/1999, 30/10/2006, 0
Picaroon, 81, 16/03/2012, 14/12/2016, 22
Crucible, 70, 03/05/2008, 06/12/2016, 11
Tramp, 64, 28/04/2011, 03/11/2016, 12
Philistine, 61, 26/05/2011, 26/11/2016, 10
Audreus, 58, 01/10/1999, 09/01/2013, 0
Boatman, 57, 01/10/2008, 01/12/2016, 7
Nutmeg, 51, 20/09/2013, 09/12/2016, 16
Bonxie, 49, 01/05/2009, 09/09/2016, 5
Qaos, 42, 12/01/2012, 15/11/2016, 9
Crispa, 39, 05/07/1999, 06/12/2004, 0
Imogen, 38, 18/10/2003, 16/12/2016, 13
Mercury, 36, 28/07/1999, 26/07/2002, 0
Auster, 35, 30/05/2000, 22/12/2010, 0
Gemini, 32, 04/08/1999, 19/01/2005, 0
Otterden, 23, 25/10/2013, 07/04/2016, 3
Plodge, 22, 09/07/1999, 01/10/2002, 0
Fawley, 20, 25/06/1999, 11/09/2000, 0
Screw, 16, 03/03/2015, 06/10/2016, 8
Vlad, 14, 11/03/2015, 18/11/2016, 8
Maskarade, 13, 24/08/2013, 27/08/2016, 4
None, 10, 12/07/1999, 04/03/2002, 0
Biggles, 9, 01/04/2000, 26/10/2013, 0
Fidelio, 6, 06/02/2001, 23/04/2003, 0
Hendra, 5, 29/10/1999, 18/01/2002, 0
Egoist, 4, 18/07/2000, 18/07/2003, 0
Pan, 4, 27/07/2016, 02/12/2016, 4
Enigmatist, Paul & Shed, 2, 16/02/2011, 29/11/2013, 0
Bogus, 1, 19/11/2016, 19/11/2016, 1
Atë, 1, 01/04/2015, 01/04/2015, 0
Fiore, 1, 13/10/2009, 13/10/2009, 0
Enigmatist & Paul, 1, 19/08/2009, 19/08/2009, 0
Omnibus, 1, 29/08/2005, 29/08/2005, 0
Sayang and/or scchua
17/01/17
I wonder if either of you could help here?
When working and travelling in Malaysia and Singapore (1974-1976),
I used to do the Sunday Times Crossword in the local newspapers.
Of course it was light relief for a rookie on the weekday Guardian Crosswords,
a month delayed.
Do either of you know where these Sunday crosswords came from?
At the time I thought they had the feel of a British newspaper.
Best Wishes to you both,
Mike (mike04)
Hi mike04, after delving in the paper’s archives:
I’m not sure if you’re referring to the Sunday Times Crossword. This was an American-style non-cryptic crossword.
On the other hand, the weekday Straits Times crossword were cryptics. They were definitely from the UK, as there was one occasion when the puzzle was delayed due to a postal strike in Britain (in those days without Internet). It was probably bought from a UK newspaper, but I don’t know which one. Here is an example from the archives (you could obtain more if you wish).
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Page/straitstimes19530626-1.1.8?ST=1&AT=search&k=Strait%20Times%20Crossword&QT=strait,times,crossword&oref=article
Thanks for your reply, scchua.
The weekday puzzles at that time were cryptic crosswords published
in The Guardian (UK), almost exactly a month earlier.
I enjoy doing old crosswords from The Straits Times (Singapore) and
the New Straits Times MALAYSIA from around the time I was working
in south-east Asia, and I’ve compared the puzzles there with their
originals for various reasons (including errors and typos!)
On a Sunday, there was a non-cryptic ‘straightforward’ crossword
– the one you mentioned. I’ve done many of these recently and I’d
like to know where they came from so that I can go back to the
originals (I access them at The British Library in London).
For the Sunday crosswords I can’t find the originals.
Of course they could have been syndicated – and not necessarily
from a Sunday or daily newspaper. Thank you for your help.
Mike
This is about ratios, and in particular whether a ratio is a relationship as crossword setters think it is. It continues a discussion on the Guardian cryptic thread for 13 February and is addressed primarily to Derek Lazenby.
I use the Chambers dictionary definition of ratio:
“the relation of one thing to another of which the quotient is the measure; quotient; proportion; …”
which is consistent with the Collins definition – just differently expressed.
A ratio is dimensionless, being a relative and not an actual or absolute value of anything.
Where I disagree with you is where you say
“A ratio is used in relationships, but that doesn’t make it a relationship.”
and I think your use of the simile about the steering wheel and the car is a non sequitur.
I said on the crossword thread that a ratio is an example of a relationship, which I maintain it is. I was careful not to say that a ratio is a relationship – they are not synonyms.
I agree with your example involving My Height and Your Height, and with your use of ‘ratio’ within that.
I’m not taking issue with you about the kinds of things being compared or whether they are already related in some way. Likewise comparisons and evaluations, which are just processes and help you get meaningful answers. I’m sticking to definitions.
Your example C/D (or C::D) is a good illustration of a ratio in which C and D happen to be related and the resulting value, the quotient, happens to be constant (because, as you know, C and D are interdependent). And the constant happens to have a name: pi.
[I followed your link but had small problems with both Feedback and Message Board. Using ‘Feedback’, I couldn’t see where the information I was asked to supply was going – it looked like a Microsoft app that I don’t use. On Message Board I got an error message despite not having used any HTML tags or BB-codes.]
Do any of you e-mail favourite clues to friends who prefer a different crossword? Tedious isn’t it, having to put them at the top and the solutions out of sight several blank lines further down? Can anything be done to improve this?
If you and your friend have HTML enabled in your e-mail programs, there are tricks of the trade, but that can lead to confused friends who don’t have it enabled, and you also need to know a bit of geek stuff to do it.
I tried creating little MS Powerpoint presentations with one slide for the clue and the next for the answer then sending them as mail attachments. This works well enough but it is a bit of a sledgehammer and it does need your friends to have Powerpoint or a Powerpoint reader.
I eventually came up with the idea of creating a little web form which you can send as an attachment which your friend simply has to double click on the file name in the e-mail to view it in their browser. It displays a clue, then a simple button click on the form reveals the answer and, if you are sending several clues, another button steps on to the next clue and so on. This is fine and dandy and here is an example using three old Grauniad clues. Click here.
But what happens when I want to send different clues? That is easy for me, I just edit the HTML code that creates the form. How do you do it? Well, you can use your browser’s View Source Code option to display the underlying code of the sample form, save it to a file and edit yourself. That isn’t as fearsome as it sounds as the clue data is clearly contained in 3 neighbouring places and the original form serves as a simple example of what needs doing.
But that may still sound fearsome to those of you who are devoutly non-techie. So, for my convenience and yours, I wrote an app which will create the web forms for you. Sadly, this only benefits those of you with a Windows PC (Windows 7 or later, probably XP, possibly Vista). If you get the gadget, it’s free (see below), then all you have to do is type in the clues and solutions and save your work to a file when you have finished via a simple button click. You can manage that can’t you? You can then attach the file to an e-mail. If you use an e-mail program, rather than using your browser for e-mail, then there is also a button which will start a blank e-mail for you using your default mail program and with the file already attached to the e-mail!
To get this marvellous, and free, gadget, you need to download and run the installation (set up) program for it from Jumpshare which is the file sharing service that I use. Click here to go directly to the download page for that specific file.
If you want any more help, click on my name above, which takes you to my web site, then click on the Feedback link on the Home page and drop me a line.
Enjoy!
Oops sorry, Jumpshare changed slightly. The link above takes you to a collection of files. The one you want is the first one CSG Setup.exe.
Easier is the actual link for just that one program which is now click here.
Derek @149
I followed your post, but I won’t take the bait because the circumstances in which I could use your method won’t arise. (For one thing, the stuff I share, whether clues or just thoughts and anecdotes, is with family and friends who look at the same material, i.e. the same crosswords, that I do.)
Whilst writing, though, I thought I would mention that you may not have seen my reponse from about two weeks ago to a point you made about ratios. That response starts about 17 inches up the page from this text (at least, on my screen it does – it’s @148). At the end of my response I explained
why I couldn’t reach you in the way you suggested to me.
Back to the Kathleen Ferrier discussion. A Radio3 broadcast today reminded me that I have a CD of a young English soprano (not contralto, admittedly) singing Schubert, Mahler, Webern and Britten. Now there’s a voice. Do try to hear her if you can.
The CD is entitled “Nocturnal Variations”.
btw I had added this to the end of the Nutmeg thread, where this last came up.
A bit late for anyone else to see this, probably, but in support of BNTO (!) today’s lunchtime concert on Radio 3 with Carolyn Sampson started with her singing some Dowland – beautiful – then Britten folk song arrangements – ugh!
Neglected to give her name! Ruby Hughes.
muffin @152 et seq
Thanks for opening up this topic – I followed it on the day of the crossword.
I heard quite a lot of Kathleen Ferrier when I was much younger. She was at her best, I thought, in recitals with Gerald Moore and in orchestral pieces, especially some works (songs and symphonies) of Gustav Mahler. Her singing in Gluck’s “What is life?”, in the clip to which Cookie gave us a link, is divine.
Kathleen’s singing of Blow the Wind Southerly, however, was a failure, IMHO. As an exercise in unaccompanied singing it was a perfect performance, but it was a dreary and nearly tuneless tune.
I can’t agree about Blow the wind Southerly. I first encountered the record when I was a child and I fell in love with the sound of it. I thought it the eeriest sound I’d ever heard and,over sixty years later, I still do. Later I came to appreciate the rest of her repertoire but I have never tired of Blow the wind Southerly.
The way she stresses each syllable just about equally in BTWS really sets my teeth on edge. A folk singer would never sing it like that.
Do try to find examples of Ruby Hughes singing, though.
Alan B. I don’t know what’ a tuneless tune’ is!
Peter @158
We obviously think very differently about this piece and this singer. I actually said ‘nearly tuneless’, so I suppose I meant ‘not much of a tune’.
Does anyone know how to get the individual number of correspondents displayed on a tablet.?
AlanB@155.
You may still find this rendition entertaining, though
Tony @161
Yes. Entertaining is the word. A different sort of talent, but talent it is!
Thanks.
Admin, please let me know if you delete this because it is not appropriate–I don’t know where else to turn!
I’m looking for help parsing the answer to Extra Clue k in the Harper’s Magazine “Split Personalities” puzzle from the May 2017 issue. (Unfortunately, when they print the solutions they don’t give the kind of detailed explanation that we get from the wonderful bloggers on this site.) The clue is “Some ruminators dash back to the sign”, and the answer is “Elands.” I’m assuming that dash=elan, but for the life of me I can’t figure out how”ds” comes from “back to the sign”. Can anyone help? Thank you in advance!
Hi LoriB
No, I won’t delete your comment, instead I will answer it.
In musical notation, DS is the abbreviation for ‘dal segno’ which is an indication that the performer must go back to the :$: sign.
Gaufrid, Of course it is! That’s a little more sophisticated than the Harper’s Puzzle usually gets–it wouldn’t have occurred to me ever. Thanks so much for your quick response.
Simon S and I are discussing 9a in todays’s excellent Crux FT puzzle.
Clue:
What appeal could also mean with a third off (4)
We’re agreed it’s PLEA. I blogged that the wordplay is APPEAL minus AP (1/3) leaving PEAL to be anagrammed (‘could also mean’).
Simon says it’s PLEAse, which I think may well be right but:
1) That disobeys the convention on proximity (which says, e.g., you can’t have an anagram of a letter-sequence which is not before your eyes, such that ‘Follow confused deity (3)’ can’t be ‘dog’ although ‘Follow deity back (3)’ is fine [you can see why I’m not a compiler]) and
2) By Simon’s parsing, PRAY(er) would also work which again isn’t classically allowed.
I do think Simon’s right and I’m happy to be in the wrong but does anyone else have a view?
Grant @ 166 has accurately summarised our discussion.
There are a couple of points that I’d like to expand:
I’m not convinced by ‘could also mean’ as an anagrind: as I posted on the crossword page, I believe that an anagram would be better indicated by ‘could also be‘. Consequently I don’t think an anagram is being indicated, simply a truncation.
PRAY(er) would indeed work, but it’s not uncommon for a crosser or two to be needed to determine precisely which of one or more possible solutions is correct. I don’t believe that every clue should necessarily be solvable on a standalone basis (but I don’t know Crux’s view on this).
I’m far from Ximenean, and view crossword conventions as precisely that: they’ve emerged rather than been laid down, and setters are at liberty to tweak or ignore them as they see fit as long as the solution can be reached from the clue / definition and wordplay.
Just a personal view, of course, and I’d be interested to see others’.
I think that PLEA(se) with a third off isn’t actually an anagram, so it is fine. As I see it, you are allowed to do what you want with a synonym, as long as the instructions are precise. A third off could mean either the front two or the back two, but with only two options that is fair.
With indirect anagrams, the problem is that ‘make a jumble of the letters’ is not at all precise, so is considered unfair unless the letters are in front of you (with some leeway, such as 11 for the letters eleven – it’s just what is fair to the solver).
I would like to chip in with a general comment, not one on the specifics of the clue in the Crux FT puzzle.
As an avid solver and an occasional setter, I wholeheartedly endorse the bit that Simon S put in bold @167. It’s good to have conventions but also good for setters to flout them using sound judgement. I venture to say that Qaos did just that in his Guardian puzzle today.
Another point in this discussion concerns whether every clue in a cryptic crossword should have a unique solution, and I believe it should. When this subject came up before on this forum, I believe that was also the consensus among setters (as far as we could tell) as well as solvers. Crossers are needed for help in solving as yet unsolved clues (to state the obvious), but I don’t think they should be used by the setter to determine one candidate answer in favour of another.
I think I weakened my own point by using the word ‘candidate’ in my post @169. I meant to say that the solver should not have to rely on crossers to decide on one alternative valid solution in favour of another. In other words, a clue should yield a unique solution (in my opinion).
I’m certainly no authority on solving, let alone setting, but it doesn’t seem unfair to me that there could be two valid solutions to a clue if there’s a check letter to distinguish them, although I can see it could be annoying not to able to solve the crosser through misplaced reliance on a wrong, but valid answer. Is this the objection?
Is there a quick way to navigate back to the home page on fifteensquared? If not, would it be easy to add a “Home” tab to the drop-down menu?
Tony @172
This would probably have been more relevant in ‘Site Feedback’ but I will answer it here. From your mention of a ‘drop-down menu’, I assume that you are viewing the site using a mobile device. If so, you should be able to get back to the Home page by scrolling up and clicking/tapping on the ‘Fifteensquared’ at the top of the screen.
Tony @171
Sorry I missed your latest comment on this topic (‘unique solutions to clues’). I’ve been back to this page two or three times since than but failed to spot that post sitting above your other recent one (that Gaufrid answered).
There is no rational objection, as far as I can see, to having non-unique solutions to clues that are resolved by crossers. The broad view is that the completed grid as a whole must be unique. However:
(1) As far as I’m aware, no setter of a cryptic crossword of the kind that you and I solve from a national newspaper has ever intentionally allowed a clue to have more than one solution, resolvable only by solutions to other clues. When it has happened I believe it has been accidental.
(2) Solvers generally expect a clue to have a unique solution. If it does not, an unexpected extra level of complexity is introduced to something that is quite complicated enough (!).
I’m an experienced solver (and a budding setter now!), but I don’t claim to be an expert on rules, or which of them are really conventions, or to what extent publishing houses decide which rules to enforce (or make up!). There has been a discussion or two on this forum already on this topic, and I understand that the consensus is as I wrote above: a clue should have a unique solution.
Gaufrid (2 above)
Thanks very much, and apologies for the late acknowledgement. This is really another question for the Site Feedback page, but I’ll ask it here as it’s so relevant: is there a way of getting notification of comments to particular blogposts? (Hopefully, I’ll remember to check back in here for the answer!)
Alan (2 above)
Thanks for setting out your thoughts and apologies to you too for forgetting to come back for your reply.
Tony
“… is there a way of getting notification of comments to particular blogposts …”
Yes, subscribe to the RSS feed. The relevant icon is in the right sidebar so if you are using a mobile device you will need to scroll down to the bottom of the page and select ‘desktop’ view which will then display the standard, rather than mobile, layout of the site.
Thanks, Gaufrid. Please see the comment I am about to post on the site feedback page, where it properly belongs.
Alan @ 127
There’s a good example of a clue with two possible solutions, not resolvable by crossers, in last month’s Genius: http://www.fifteensquared.net/2017/06/04/guardian-genius-167-paul/
Kitty @ 6 points out that she put CITHERN (an alternative spelling which satisfies the wordplay) for CITTERN
Tony @179
Thanks for pointing that out. It’s a genuine and rare example of a dual solution, which we can surely say was not intended by Paul.
Paul could even have said ‘aquatic bird’ and still not have avoided the dual!
Yes, Paul would surely have clued it differently if he had seen the possibility of such an erudite alternative. Poor Kitty! It reminds me of an Italian idiom I once heard: “climb a tree to catch a fish” — though possibly not quite the right one for the case. I hope she wrote to the editor to demand a rerun of the lottery.
Point of discussion (after Grant Baynham’s blog of FT 15,604 (Gaff) dd 18/07/2017):
– Do we want a completed grid included in a blog?
– If so, where do we want it, at the beginning or at the end?
– Some say: There should only be a grid included if there are special things (like theme words) to be highlighted?
I am afraid we’ll get a ‘referendum-like’ result, more or less 50/50.
For me, the second question is the most relevant (and could possibly give information that’s useful to PeeDee).
To Sil @ 182:
Seems to me there are two (related) topics here.
1. Spoilers.
Some bloggers never show solutions in the headers. They may say something like (these are non-specific) “My favourites were 7a and and 19d and I’m feeling a bit 12d about some of the 11a clues!” All of which I find irritating: you actually have to set up split-screen displays to follow the jokes, such as they are, and they’re almost always not clever and not funny (trust me, I’m a professional). My life is too short for such nonsense. I don’t think spoilers are a huge problem. If you’ve got as far as the blog, you’ve probably solved the grid already. I personally almost never join in until I’ve cracked the puzzle: if I haven’t, I’m there precisely to find either an answer or a parse which is driving me mad. I WANT the answer. Do others feel the same?
2. The Grid
Is the grid a spoiler of itself? Are you here only to find an answer or two to help you on yr way? In which case, see above. But I do think there’s an argument for having the grid at the bottom of the blog, with the facility to hop up-and-down to it. Over to Pee-Dee.
The main question here is: what is a spoiler and what is not.
When you say “I don’t think spoilers are a huge problem“, then either we completely disagree or we talk about different things.
A crossword blog has three or four parts:
A – the preamble above the line Read the rest of this entry
B – the rest of the preamble (not visible when starting up Fifteensquared)
C – the explanations of the clues
D – a completed grid (optional)
Spoilerisms [I like that word 🙂 ] have only to do with A.
In section A absolutely nothing should be given away.
I’m quite sure that this an (unwritten) law at this site.
Mentioning that there is a theme should only be allowed if it is clear from the clues that there is a theme.
In section B anything can be said, in my opinion.
As to point D, the completed grid, I personally cannot be bothered.
If you go further than A, nothing is a spoiler anymore.
From an aesthetic point of view I prefer to see them at the end, if bloggers use them.
Belated many thanks.
To Oren re Saturday’s Independent and Tuesday Financial Times puzzles…
The Tuesday FT is usually very suitable for beginners/improvers, otherwise they wouldn’t trust me with it. You can find it on-line from midnight-London-time each Tuesday a.m. I blog it on fifteensquared and always do so with pedantic clarity, all abbreviations explained in full and references spelled out specifically for non-UK solvers.
Be nice to see you there some time.
It seems to me that the comments on Nimrod’s puzzle, Indy 9620 (12th August), went on far too long and way off topic, quite apart from possibly contravening site policy. I have no intention of getting dragged into the debate there but I would suggest that the best policy if someone picks up on a comment you have made is (a) if their comment is about a matter of fact or interpretation to reply politely if you think further comment or explanation worth while, or (b) if their comment is personal or derogatory to ignore it. Incidentally I have adopted both options on a few occasions recently.
More generally it is true on the whole that comments on this site, at least as far as Indy puzzles are concerned, are more often appreciative than otherwise. But at the Q&A session at the recent Macclesfield S&B one of the panellists (Anax/Loroso I think) said that adverse criticism can also be welcome provided it’s constructive – don’t simply say a particular clue is rubbish, say why you think so. But that’s no reason to denigrate the setter.
Guardian Crossword App:
Two problems on Android:
1. Black text on dark green background – any way of changing it?
2. If keyboard autofill is on, then using the backspace key causes problems when correcting mistakes
Is there any way of solving these in the app settings?
Brian W
This is really to plug a small gap in the contributions I made to a mini-debate on the spelling of Crêpes Suzette, which was an answer to a clue in the Philistine Prize blog on the Guardian thread, posted on 19 August. I will link to this comment on that blog if necessary.
I made the point that the dish is spelled as written above, in which ‘crêpes’ is already plural, and that ‘Suzette’ is not an adjective but a name. In French, therefore, ‘Suzette’ does not have the standard ‘-s’ plural form that an adjective would take.
When the mini-debate on the blog led (accidentally, perhaps) to what the plural form of the already-plural ‘Crêpes Suzette’ would be, I think I missed the point. It didn’t affect the crossword itself, because the setter clued CRÊPES SUZETTE the dish, any plural-plural form (!) being irrelevant.
Two dictionaries (as noted on the blog) do give an anglicised plural form ‘crêpes suzettes’ for the dish. I’m not sure in what context that might be used – perhaps when a waiter takes an order for ‘two crêpes suzettes’. On the blog I indicated that this plural form was ‘wrong’. I would now just say that I think it’s ugly! At the very least I think the dictionaries ought to allow the plural form to be unchanged from the singular. Why anglicise a French phrase?
.. and the post in question is at
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2017/08/19/guardian-prize-27274-philistine/
… and remember, Alan, the definition on the clue was “pancakes”, not “dish”
Tony @191
Yes, I know, but ‘crêpes Suzette’ can mean either the individual pancakes or the dish with that name. The setter with that one-word definition could have meant either or both.
@Derek Lazenby
Is there a program where we can import clues into boxes, and, in boxes against each of them select clue-type from a drop-down facility and at the end we get counts of clues by clue-type. If not, can you create such a program? If yes, I will provide the list of clue-types. TIA.
I thought I had posted something here before about the most used solutions in the Guardian archive, but it was probably in one of the puzzle threads (and on the Guardian comments page). Excluding the very small number of puzzles that I have failed to track down, these are the ones with at least 30 appearances since June 1999. Most of these are the kinds of words that resolve gridfilling problems – common crossing letters in unusual patterns:
EXTRA 51
ISLE 49
USED 42
STUD 41
STYE 39
ECHO, EDGE, STUN 37
ERATO, ISSUE 36
ADIEU, ANON, ARCH, IDLE 34
ARENA, BLUE, ESTATE, IDEAL 33
ADDRESS, IRIS, NIECE, OUNCE 32
ADONIS, ONSET, OVERT 31
ACHE, DREAM, ETERNAL, EVENT, STAY, UNIT 30
I have 5648 puzzles with 159366 clues to 63957 distinct solutions in my list (I have not added today’s yet).
Cheers!