Guardian 26,607 by Otterden

51 comments on “Guardian 26,607 by Otterden”

1. Thank you Otterden and manehi

   I also found this tricky in places and I was pleased that I could actually complete it. New word for me was LADETTES.

   I could not parse 26a or 19d (I thought it was deer* = dam + EM)

   My favourites were 11a, 5d, 18a, 22a.

2. Thanks Otterden and manehi.

   I took the parsing of 2 as SH + R (run) + ILL (off), as in “I was feeling off yesterday, but now I’m fine.”

   While I’m here, since I can’t think of a better parsing for 12, I’m going to pretend the clue reads “14 fail to have effect in the end”. Otherwise it seems pointless to add an “s” to DIES just to take it off again, and it avoids the icky “terminal effect” for “t” construction. 13 and 17 can be adjusted to avoid this just as easily.

3. Thanks Otterden and manehi

   A bit of a mixed bag, I thought, but it was certainly very clever to spot the source for the INTRIGUE anagram.

   Ref 12, I don’t think the ‘fails’ is necessary at all, as DIE-CUTTING is a standard technique.

4. Like others I found this quite hard, but managed to complete it. I also thought the clue for DIET was a bit iffy; and I definitely remember UPSILON rather than YPSILON. Favourites were BELLYFLOPS, SMORGASBORD and LADETTES.

5. Thanks manehi and Otterden.

   I’m against the flow again, finding it easier than the last few by this compiler. I had LEGISLATURE straight away, which is unusual for me for a keyword, but it didn’t help a great deal.

   Some nice clues, as others have mentioned, but marred a little by repetition of ILL in 5a (not very well) and 2d (off); and as many as three clues of subtractive anagrams (1ac, 25a, and 7d)

6. I was slow to get on Otterden’s wavelength, but once I did I managed to make steady progress. It was unusual to see three compound anagram clues (as mentioned by Dave Ellison) but I have no problem with them. I agree that the clue for DIET didn’t seem to be up to the standard of the rest of the puzzle, but in general I thought this was a much better one than some of Otterden’s earlier ones. ASSEMBLY was my LOI after YPSILON and it took me much too long to see it.

7. Thank you, manehi, needed you to parse INTRIGUE for me. The compiler uses this partial anagram ruse to good effect – loved BREADLINE for instance.

   What do you think ‘like’ is doing in the LADETTES clue? Seems only to be there for the surface.

   With ANTHILL, not sure how fair it is to simply imply that ‘some’ letters appear in a word ‘somewhere’. The clue was eminently solvable, though, so I suppose it’s fair enough.

   How do we equate ‘attracted’ with ‘appealed’ I wonder. My normal test is to try to construct a sentence and be able to insert either word but I can’t seem to do it in this case.

   Surprised on checking to learn that ‘silo’ is also a verb – I was on the point of appealing for a foul at YPSILON!

   All in all, a good puzzle from Otterden, many thanks.

8. Once I got legislature I went looking for congress, parliament, and senate, and after “hows your father” and “Ugandan discussions” already this week I was a little nervous as to how congress might be clued. Obviously didn’t find senate and got held up on assembly us a result. Diet was my last one and like most I imagine the only time we have heard it in this context would have been the highly amusing (well to a 13yo schoolboy) Diet of Worms.

   Did like the surface for Embryology. And I know the breadline as a definition of poverty comes from the queues that formed of those in need, but is that the common usage now?

   Defeated today by 5a and 6d.

   Thanks to Otterden and Manehi

9. Thanks Otterden and manehi.

   I enjoyed this, especially, after getting LEGISLATURE, finding DIET, PARLIAMENT, ASSEMBLY and CONGRESS.

   BREADLINE made me smile, I remembered a reporter for Time magazine being told to get a picture of one during a strike in England; he had no luck, so took a photo of people queuing up outside a bookies!

10. AndyK @8, perhaps the queues that form here in France outside ‘Food Banks’ could be called BREADLINES, I guess they also occur in the UK?

11. Thanks both

    I like Steve B’s parsing for 2d, and agree that 12a is messy

12. It seems Otterden can just about cope with the double-definition clues, but there are few others done properly. An awful puzzle for me. There are some ‘definition for word-play’ ones that irk too, but I will leave those.

    1a def is wrong tense; 5a ‘engaged in philanthropy’ indicates nothing; 10a def feels either idiosyncratic or worng; 11a ‘why text’ doesn’t give Y. ‘Texted’ maybe, ‘to’ is dead, and what is ‘were’ doing?; 12a ‘terminal effect’ does not mean T; 14a suggests that IT has to go inside the anagram not be part of it; 18a why ‘about’?; 25a nounal indication; 26a ‘is not’ is so clumsy and grammatically wrong; 27a ‘in the end’ means nothing and wrong tense of def; 2d RILL is not a verb in Collins; 3d ‘redefined’ I don’t care for; 7d even if you like the ‘possible result’ theory, the grammar here is totally wrong; 8d why ‘like’? ‘Importation’ does not instruct; 13d ‘initial intonation’ is wrong; 15d ‘middle-aged doesn’t really work, and why ‘on’?; 17a should have ‘starts to’ if it’s going to work; 19d ‘to’?; 23d I didn’t know CH = child.

    It really looks as if anything other than the simplest thing causes this compiler confusion! 😀

13. I have not been on Otterphile in the past but he does seem to be lifting his game and although he is no Monk or Enigmatist, I think this an improvement.

14. Thanks manehi and Otterden
    Like others I found this tricky but solvable. Otterden’s puzzles tend to leave me dissatisfied about some of his surfaces’ loose construction.
    I lazily read 2d as sh+rill but sh+r+ill seems better.

15. HH – here we go . . .

    “1a def is wrong tense.” The tense is fine! The crash was in the past, but now s/he’s away in London.

    “5a ‘engaged in philanthropy’ indicates nothing.” ‘Engaged in’ indicates that some part of the clue is in the word ‘philanthropy’. Seems OK to me.

    “10a def feels either idiosyncratic or wrong.” Appealed = attracted? – seems fine.

    “11a ‘why text’ doesn’t give Y. ‘Texted’ maybe, ‘to’ is dead, and what is ‘were’ doing?” Agree that ‘why text’ is iffy and ‘to’ is redundant, but contents of anagram are clear.

    “12a ‘terminal effect’ does not mean T.” I reckon it does.

    “14a suggests that IT has to go inside the anagram not be part of it.” Yes, that is a more natural reading of the clue.

    “18a why ‘about’?” Why not? It doesn’t do any harm to the clue!

    “25a nounal indication.” Don’t understand your comment – looks OK to me.

    “26a ‘is not’ is so clumsy and grammatically wrong.” A bit clumsy but it works, and seems grammatically correct.

    “27a ‘in the end’ means nothing and wrong tense of def.” Yes, ‘in the end’ doesn’t quite work for me either. Agree that tense is wrong.

    “2d RILL is not a verb in Collins.” It is in Chambers.

    “3d ‘redefined’ I don’t care for.” It’s as good as many other anagrinds.

    “7d even if you like the ‘possible result’ theory, the grammar here is totally wrong.” Seems OK to me.

    “8d why ‘like’? ‘Importation’ does not instruct.” ‘Like’ is indeed redundant. ‘Importation’ indicates insertion.

    “13d ‘initial intonation’ is wrong.” I agree – this clueing isn’t great.

    “15d ‘middle-aged doesn’t really work, and why ‘on’?” Middle-aged = ag is fine. Agree that ‘on’ is redundant.

    “17a should have ‘starts to’ if it’s going to work.” Technically true, but it seems clear.

    “19d ‘to’?” Agree.

    “23d I didn’t know CH = child.” Fairly common usage I think.

16. I entered FIAT for 10a (figured it was an anagram of FAI(LS) plus T) and the alternative spelling WASABE for 1d. Found the puzzle generally a bit awkward in places; too many anagram-but-you-have-to remove-letters clues.

17. A really nice themed puzzle – all the “14” clues raised a smile – although I must admit that I share hedgehoggy’s reservations about ANTHILL. I can’t see any way to read the wordplay in the way that Otterden wants.

    “WEST END” and “INTRIGUE” are both the sort of clue a lot of people like to complain about, but I’d say that these are examples of the subtractive anagram done rather nicely (INTRIGUE especially).

18. This was easier than some recent puzzles for me, although I needed to come here for parsing a couple of the compound anagrams. Maybe it was easier because for once, I didn’t need to know any peculiar British euphemisms for sex.

    Someone mentioned the Diet of Worms. There’s also the Diet of Japan (the most prominent modern legislature by that name). Of course, the diet of Japan prominently features WASABI…

19. drofle, you need to be able to distinguish between the surface, which does not have a grammar, and the cryptic reading, which is the ‘real’ reading and thus does. While all these clues may read well, they’re not functioning properly in the ‘real world’.

20. Thanks o manehi for the blog.

    I’m another unhappy with 5a: there is nothing sensible in the clue saying ‘take some letters from philanthropy’.

    I was very happy with 1a: I saw the construction immediately then guessed the answer very swiftly. The others generally took longer.

21. A little untidy in places, but I managed to finish this reasonably quickly and found a few things to enjoy. Last in was SAND MARTIN.

    Thanks to Otterden and manehi

22. There’s a “plus OR” missing for 18.

23. Drofle@15, well done.

    HH@wellwherever, could I just point out that one of the reasons that I believe that your posts wind so many people up is they way that you state everything as fact, when most are just your opinion. E.g. “‘terminal effect’ does not mean T”, do you mean “I don’t think that ‘terminal effect’ means T” or “I would prefer setters did not use ‘terminal effect’ to mean T”, or even “I don’t understand how ‘terminal effect’ means T”?

24. I thought this was very straightforward and much easier than Otterden’s previous puzzles-although I admit I couldn’t parse PARLIAMENT. I had to look up YPSILON but I guessed it was an alternative spelling of UPSILON. LOI was INTRIGUE.
    Thanks Otterden.

25. Quite liked this though it’s a shame that the ILL trick appears twice. THETA / YPSILON was nice and the theme accelerated some of the entries. Enjoyed subtracting words to form anagrams too. Putting all of these things together, I didn’t find the crossword the slog that some did, though I think I recall struggling with Otterden in the past.

26. Hi AndyK I frequently remind people that it is indeed only my opinion, but apologies. Maybe it is time to remind them again! 🙂

27. Thanks Otterden and manehi
    I gave up on DIET – I knew the that it was a sort of legislature, but I couldn’t make sense of the clue. Other than that I finished, but without really enjoying it. Add me to the list of people not liking the derivation of ANTH in 5a.
    I knew the names of the “busted dams” in 19d, but it was a bit general knowledgy.

28. Thanks Otterden and manehi

    This guy has a quirky style that has taken a bit of getting used to – I have, and find his offerings very entertaining.
    Sure, there is some latitude used in selecting ANTH from a longer word, but they are the central letters of the word, not just a random group – it presented little trouble to understand what he was asking to be done.
    Each of his smaller subtraction anagrams has the subtracted word taken out in order of the spelling – IS in 1a and US in 25a. The compound anagram is similar to those used by other setters.

    Thought that the constructions used in BELLYFLOPS, SMORGASBORD and SHRILL were excellent. The ‘Dam Buster’ idea in REDEEM was also very good – a little obscure, but very clever.

    There’s a lot of originality here … and the right degree of difficulty.

29. I can empathise with AndyK at 8. After How’s Your Father and Ugandan Discussions earlier in the week, I too wondered (very briefly) about Congress in this puzzle, and when I had just the Y and the P in Bellyflops I thought Oh No! it’s not going to be Rumpy Pumpy, is it?

    Thankfully no, and I enjoyed this one for many good reasons.

30. Lots of challenging fun here, though I did raise an eyebrow at BELLYFLOP for complete disaster.

    A Michele pointed out, ‘busted dam’ In 19d also parses as DEER* since a dam is also a female deer with offspring, and there’s plenty of them around here right now – and those bambis are too cute.

    I liked the creativity in ANTHILL, it’ll be interesting to see if it catches on elsewhere.

    I thought three uses of the subtractive anagram device were too many, but on the other hand, it was main reason I got INTRIGUE.

    Favorites were PARLAIMENT and INTRIGUE.

    Thanks to Ottenden and manehi

31. hedgehoggy @12

    You say that the definitions in 1A and 27A are the wrong ‘tense’. In both cases the answer is a noun. Verbs have tenses, not nouns. This is called Grammar. You would do well to learn a little about the subject.

32. PeterO @31
    I think HH is saying that the surface seems to require “was” rather than “is” in 1ac.

33. The erinaceous one just loves his tenses, PeterO!

    The point he would have made, given expertise such as yours, is that the clues require definitions that are nounal, rather than the adjectival ones provided.

    The ‘is’ at 1A appears to me to be okay (and I certainly don’t mind the ‘but’, which is non-essential for purists). ‘Crash’ might be better as ‘crashes’, but since ‘witnesses’ is just as plural as it is singular, I don’t suppose anyone really minds.

    The clueing is rescued for Ximenhogs, therefore, by using ‘here in London’, for example.

34. Loved it, otterden got up peoples noses initially but this is fine, some cracking subtraction anagrams. Well done sir and blogger too.
    Thankfully it wasn’t quite the brain buster nimrod gave us elsewhere.

35. flashling @34
    Do you not think that 3 subtractive anagrams in the same puzzle was a bit OTT? – I think it was the repetitiveness of the clueing methods that was the main cause of my lack of enjoyment.

36. @muffin, no not really, it’s probably the way a lot of setters will go in the future, I think solvers especially on the edge as guardian and Indy are should learn to love and expect these.
    Perhaps I’m just the sort who likes spotting new devices by setters, what’s the point if you can solve by rote without thinking?

37. Hi flashling
    Just to make it clear, I thought all three of the clues were very good, of their type. It was the lack of variety that I was less than impressed with.

38. Paul B @33

    I do not think it requires much expertise to know the meaning of ‘tense’. Also, if your reinterpretation of hedgehoggy’s comment is correct, I note that you are stating as hard fact something that is open to argument. Or are you just mimicking hedgehoggy?

39. I think I enjoyed this! 🙂

    It wasn’t too difficult as I now treat Otterden like Rufus and expect the “unusual”.

    The cluing was just a bit loose in places.

    I can only add to previous comments that I’m not sure of the equivalence of SCRUB and ABANDON.

    But obviously the ed thought it was OK! 😉

    Thanks to manehi and Otterden

40. Re PeterO @ 38 am I? Oh well I suppose I am being a bit old-fashioned, Pete. Perhaps, like a total fool, I made the mistake of comparing the answers with the definitions in their clues. Opinions eh? Hah! What’s your slant?

    Agree re tense however: if even I’m aware of it, then it must be very widely known. Indeed, anyone who doesn’t know it should be flayed and rolled in salt. Or caked in clay and baked. What do you say?

41. PeterO @ 31

    It’s not worth the effort!

    Nonetheless, the tense of PUT can be present, past, or imperative. So if one can’t tell what was intended, how on earth can one say whether it’s right or not? Unless of course you think that STUDY or GROUP are verbs, which would be utterly bizarre.

    Gotta go now, Dinsdale’s just around the corner…

42. Oh ye gods.

43. 1a seems fine, on police report ‘so-and-so witnessed crash but is away in London’, i.e. is not available at the moment to give evidence.

44. @39, “ok, scrub that and do something else”. Common usage.

45. I found this a mixed bag. Some I found quite easy to solve, some were difficult. Some I got the wordplay after solving, some I needed to come here for it. All in all, though, got there in the end and so a swell time. Thanks to setter, blogger, and all the good folks here who commented, too.

46. A nicely challenging mixture of fun, a clever theme and a variety of techniques. I didn’t think anything was unfair or especially loose or clunky. The subtracted anagrams were well constructed.

    I couldn’t parse 12 ac, so thanks to manehi and various posters for sorting it out.

    This puzzle has unsurprisingly attracted ire from a certain quarter, and thanks to drofle @15 for taking the trouble to answer the list of concerns (or opinions, as graciously confirmed @ 26). In my view Otterden deserves a more positive response than such a nit-picking and scornful critique.

    I agree that “took” makes the the surface reading in 10ac a bit clumsy (“taking” would seem more natural, but wouldn’t help the clue); perhaps “then” rather than “before” would help it to read more naturally. Otherwise I like the clue.

    I have learned an alternate spelling of upsilon and a new word (nounal), so today was a learning day. Hurrah!

47. DL @44

    Thanks for that.

    The dictionaries are at odds on this.

    My feeling is that “abandon” has a sense of stopping something that is already in progress. Whereas “cancel” has more of a sense stopping something before it happens.

    I have always use “scrub” in the cancel sense and never as abandon.

    Collins seems to agree, Chambers thinks abandon is OK, and SOED hedges its bets by not giving the sense of abandon for the transitve verb but giving abandonment for the noun as a slang term, especially for a flying mission.

    Anyway “scrub” for “abandon” is certainly not “common usage” where I live. (Not in my experience anyway!)

48. Henrietta I don’t think it can be disputed that I acknowledge from tome to time that these are just my opinions, and that also I do not always get it right. Okay? It’s obvious that these are just opinions in my view, but I do take the trouble to acknowledge, as I have said. What I say is not meant to be ‘factual’ or representing any ‘rules’.

49. Brendan @47

    You raise an interesting issue about common usage. Does something have to be in common usage to be acceptable for crossword purposes, and who determines whether it is so anyway? In the absence of an appropriate arbiter for such matters, I have in general terms come round to accepting that if whatever-it-is is in usage somewhere, even if I personally am not familiar with it, then it is OK, and I had better broaden my horizons and accept it.

    For example, for a long time I had a problem with the use of “space” to represent “en” or sometimes “ell”. To my way of thinking, these words weren’t in common usage (unless you are a printer); I always felt it was lazy compiling to include words that seemed to exist solely for crosswords and not real life (or mine anyway). I have come round to grudging acceptance, but still wish the compiler would find an alternative. I imagine we all have such preferences/bugbears.

    Consistent solving of these buggers requires a passing acquaintance with: Latin, French, musical notations, cricketing terms, rivers as flowers, directions as points, Greek letters, curious idioms such as “how’s your father?”, the Reverend Spooner, cockneys dropping aitches, Abba songs and a multitude of other esoterica. The issue of common usage is thus problematic.

    I have found that being more relaxed about looseness/fairness in clueing increases my enjoyment of the struggle. Other regular posters will I am sure disagree.

50. HH@48
    Fair points.

    You can express your opinions forcefully, and from what I can see (I have not always been a regular user of this wonderful site) you tend to include more criticism than praise. But I must say you usually raise points that are worth debating, even if I don’t always agree with them, so thanks for your thought-provoking contributions.

    The world would be boring if everyone thought the same way (you are welcome to disagree).

51. Henrietta @49

    I largely agree with what you say.

    My use of the phrase “Common usage” was purely in reply to Derek Lazenby @44 who used the phrase to justify the SCRUB answer in reply to my original post @39!

    I’d originally said that I wasn’t particularly happy with the use of SCRUB to mean ABANDON.

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