Guardian 26,637 by Tramp

65 comments on “Guardian 26,637 by Tramp”

1. Thanks Tramp and manehi

   It’s a terrible thing to say, but I found this rather dull, with no particularly entertaining clues. RHONCHI was a new word for me, and, as far as I can find out, a WIRE BIRD is simply a bird sculpture fashioned out of wire – odd idea.

   I don’t see GUILT = SIN.

   IAMBI aren’t “lines”; they are rhythmical structures within lines, and why did we need the “we hear”?

2. Hi muffin

   Chambers gives “guilt:= sin, sinfulness or the consciousness of it”

   Agree on your points on IAMBI. I thought about adding that “one topless deer”, when heard aloud, is an example of IAMBI – if so, the wordplay also serves as an alternative definition, but this seems a stretch.

3. Thanks, manehi. I took guilt as just being the last part of your definition – i.e. “the consciousness of sin”.

4. You’re missing the “S” in 5A, which is the “is” in the clue. I agree with Muffin on WIRE BIRD and IAMBI.

5. muffin@1:

   Wikipedia says that the Saint Helena Plover is also known as a wirebird (though it’s one word, not two).

   And, according to Collins, an iamb is also a line of verse consisting of iambi.

6. I had the same quibbles as muffin but enjoyed the puzzle nonetheless. Failed on PRICELESS (had POINTLESS which wouldn’t parse) and hence WIRE BIRD. Favourites were OUST, TRICEPS and GENDER BENDER. Thanks to Tramp and manehi.

7. Thanks for the blog, Manehi.

   Poor muffin. As we say so often, it’s a good job we’re all different. I’ve just had a magic half hour or so solving a puzzle by one of my top favourite setters to the accompaniment [thanks to YouTube] of the top favourite songs of one of my top favourite bands and I’ve enjoyed every minute of it.

   As usual with Tramp’s puzzles, you didn’t need knowledge of the theme to solve the puzzle but having some did enhance the experience, especially, for me, in my favourite clue, 14ac: ‘So Far away ‘ is another DS song – very clever.

   No problem with IAMBI [except the puzzling ‘we hear’] – see here:

   http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/iambi

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iambus_%28genre%29

   As ever, too many super clues to name all the favourites. Many thanks to Tramp for a brilliant start to the day. Now for Redshank – my cup runneth over.

8. Steve B @5 – we crossed.

   In the paper version, the clue for 27ac is ‘Essential to put out Money for Nothing’. I thought it was a bit odd at first sight but it makes sense if you think of essential and must both as nouns.

9. Thanks manehi. As a DS fan I was entertained by this, especially liking the misleading clues like the Romeo and Juliet one (wondering also about Shakespeare – the play does have an Echo reference) and 1A’s ‘arm pieces.’ But I agree with Muffin on the wire bird.

10. Thanks to Steve B and Eileen for your definitions of IAMBI. I had a weird experience using Google to look it up – I couldn’t stop it auto-filling to search for “iambic pentameter”. Chambers only gives the “foot/feet” meaning, with “iambic” referring to a line containing such feet.

11. Thanks manehi for the blog.

    I wrote this puzzle in July 2013. I was given the last proof of this puzzle last weekend when I was away from home. I had rewritten several clues because some of them were a bit complicated and I feared I would get panned. The first version contained more Dire Straits references. The clue for 27a was one that I changed because I wasn’t convinced “essential” and “must” were synonymous. I think changes need to be made at least a week prior to publication for them to appear in all the versions. This explains the discrepancy between the paper and online versions, to which Eileen refers. I’m annoyed at myself over 25d. This was another very late rewrite. The clue I submitted was:

    Lines from one topless dear, we hear (5)

    I hadn’t noticed that the editor had changed “dear” for “deer” and so it now doesn’t work. Had I been at home I would have printed the final proof out and test-solved it. I’m sorry about that.

    Neil

12. By the way: I believe the wire bird is an alternative name for the St Helena plover. Chambers gives it as two words but it does seem to be one word when I look online.

13. I failed to solve 17a REJIG and needed help to parse 27a MUST.

    New words for me were RHONCHI & WIRE BIRD.

    My favourites were RECOVERED, RAKES IN & EMIRATE.

    I agree with Jason@4 re the missing “S”and with several others who do not see the need for “we hear” in the clue to 25d.

    Thanks manehi and Tramp

14. Neil/Tramp@11 – I had not seen your comment regarding the dear/deer when I posted my comment@13. Thanks for the explanation.

15. Once I got started on this, I very much enjoyed it. Thanks Tramp. The only quibble from me is that I can’t parse 5A to get “THERE’S”.

16. Thanks Tramp and manehi.

    A most enjoyable solve, even though DIRE STRAITS, in the sense of being a rock band, were unknown to me.

    I was really confused with WIRE BIRD, I thought it was an eavesdropper on a telephone line. That reminded me of my late husband in Alexandria telephoning a colleague to find out how to obtain a second gas cylinder for the kitchen stove (only one was allotted), a price to expect was stated and a little voice piped up ‘That’s much too expensive’.

17. JC@15
    I parsed 5a as THERE’S (there is) + A (America) because the def is ‘girl’ and “is in that place” = there’s

18. I like Dire Straits so I thoroughly enjoyed this, and as has been pointed out knowledge of the theme wasn’t needed to solve the puzzle. Thanks to Neil for dropping in and explaining what went wrong with the clue for IAMBI. It is very worrying when an editor can get hold of a perfectly good clue and make it a poor one. SIT OUT was my LOI after DENSITY.

19. I parsed THERESA as THERE plus SA for South America, which is most probably not correct.

20. Thanks Tramp & manehi. Unfortunate about the ‘deer, we hear’ but it didn’t stop the solve.

    Solved without much knowledge of Dire Straits. Money for Nothing is, of course, another one.

    I did like the (Brothers in) Arms pieces.

    As Tramp says WIRE BIRD is in Chambers as a plover, so there shouldn’t be any problem with that.

21. Michelle@17

    The problem is, I can’t for the life of me think of a sentence where “there’s” can be interchanged with “is in the place”. Maybe I could when it was written or maybe I messed up!

    Girl in that place is American (6)

    is better and I should have submitted it as a rewrite.

    Neil

22. Might “Girl’s in that place: America” work better? Perhaps the editor has again changed something?

23. Loveley puzzle. Clearly Tramp understands music-dare I say also plays,maybe Jazz. What with clefs,licks, sax, orchestra pit, band, gigs.A real pleasure solving.Thanks Tramp

24. Some mistakes here and there but these have been mentioned.

    At 1a I feared we were in for another very bitty puzzle, clues absolutely shattering the words to get an idea in, where the theme is forced, but we escaped just about. But still I don’t really like themes ‘woven in’ in this way.

    HH

25. Although I knew there was such a group as Dire Straits, and assumed there were a lot of references to explain the strange wording of several clues, I didn’t bother to google for them, as it soon became clear that it wouldn’t help to find the answers.
    Thanks, Tramp for explaining what went wrong !

26. This was fun. Last one in was TRICEPS, which I had to come here to have parsed for me. As ever, I start with 1-across, which means that TRICEPS was also the first clue I read. As soon as I saw Brothers in Arms and Latest Trick, I knew we were in for some dire straits (in both its majuscule and minuscule forms)!

    When I saw “… topless deer, we hear,” I actually parsed the clue backwards: substituting “dear” as the homophone for deer,” lopped the top off of “lambs” (synonym for “dear,” as a common term of endearment–can’t quite explain the plural in my version), and wound up with iambs. Realized I was wrong when I solved ASSIGNS.

27. This was a real struggle – I found it almost as tough as the Vlad, and I had to resort to guess and check to finish. Some of the definitions were tricky, and RHONCHI was unfamiliar but very guessable. Liked DELIVERY, DENSITY, SWEAR IN and RAKE SIN. No problem with the theme – never one of my favourite bands but I did like some of the early stuff even if Money for Nothing did become one of the most annoying songs ever…

    Thanks to Tramp and manehi

28. Thanks to Tramp and manehi. I had trouble getting MUST and SIT OUT (the ST(one) eluded me) and TV for transvestite was new to me, so that I welcomed the parsings above.

29. Please don’t beat yourself up Tramp (Neil) – despite its imperfections, we LOVED it…! And a great ‘go along’ solve was welcome after a few days of what myself & my OH call ‘pigs’!!! Really enjoyed it; & thanks Manehi too. Fave was GENDER BENDERS…so clever, so simple…!!!

30. However you look at it, I’m afraid 5ac just doesn’t work. Forte is loud not strong. I agree with hh about forcing clues to fit in with themes.

31. Re the IAMBI controversy, it may not be a perfect clue thanks to the iffy definition, but at least we’re spared the usual declaration of the setter’s uncertain sexuality.

    Frankly I didn’t expect to be posting today, it having taken so long to get started – a single answer on first pass. The top half slowly yielded however, thanks to the longish TIPPERARY and TREBLE CLEF, but it was a real sweat to get the bottom completed. What a tough week it’s been.

32. Dire Straits are surely the most boring band in the world so I was relieved that it was unnecessary to delve into their output in order to solve this. The upper portion went in quite quickly but I found the lower half rather a slog. The cluing was pretty good even including IAMBI and MUST. Indeed IAMBI would have been quite excellent had the proofreading been better.
    REJIG was my LOI.
    In the end quite a satisfying puzzle.
    Thanks Tramp.

33. Way to go Trampy.

    Is it normal for Guardian puzzles to be two years old before they appear?

    Cheers P.

34. jeceris@30 forte as a musical direction derives directly from the Latin fortis, strong. So the clue is spot on.
    And I’ve no problem with IAMBI – there would probably have been even more quibbles if the definition had been feet, which is strictly more accurate.
    But maybe that’s just the benefit of a classical education!
    I don’t know why there’s controversy about 5 across. “There’s John” and “John is in that place” mean the same, so THERE’S plus A seems fine to me.
    Having said that, I don’t think it does to get too hung up on parsings anyway. One generally knows whether one has got the right answer or not and going back afterwards and analysing the answer to the nth degree strikes me as akin to checking the contents of the toilet after one has used it.
    I liked the crossword. I can’t say it’s a classic, but it seemed pretty fair to me. Though I did wonder if a somewhat pejorative term for cross-dressers is really appropriate in the Graun.

35. I’m with muffin@1 on this one. I expect I would have had an entirely different experience if I knew anything about Dire Straits. But knowing nothing, the surfaces were often too tortuous to give as much enjoyment as I needed to compensate for the effort required. And so, yes, I would probably have enjoyed more if I were smarter. Thanks to Tramp and manehi. Perhaps one day a compiler might say what they really think of the quality of the editing they get at the Guardian. But I suppose Tramp has made it clear, in his diplomatic way. On the other hand, my niggling criticism aside, the standard of setting is superb.

36. Reading my earlier comment back, it looks more negative than it should have been, more through frustration with myself than any criticism of the crossword, which was fun and clever.

37. I parsed 5A like this:

    IS = ‘s = S
    THAT PLACE = THERE
    AMERICA = A

    The “in” tells us to put S in (THERE A).

    For some reason I had trouble parsing quite a few clues, but when I read the blog I realized they all worked (except “we hear”, which Tramp has explained).

38. Very much enjoyed this despite knowing nothing of the theme. Liked DELIVERY especially.

39. Hi Jim T

    Yes, you might well! [I did, too, actually, to be honest, and rememember smiling [very] wryly at [can’t remember whose] brilliant ‘end of term party (6)’. 😉

40. More please and thank you. (Wrong group entirely, but a very enjoyable struggle made harder by somehow reading the numbering of 11ac as 4-6 instead of 6-4! One of the easier clues once I had spotted my error.)

    TRICEPS and DELIVERY were my favourites I think, but lots of clever disguise and wordplay so thanks Tramp and manehi.

41. David @34, while I agree with you, if your education had been more rounded, you might not have made such a silly statement as that at the end of your paragraph three. From it I assume you have never travelled to Germany. If you want to know what I am getting at, Google mrpenney’s comment @36 in yesterday’s Nutmeg puzzle, i.e. tapeworm.

42. I founfd this very un-Tramplike.

    I’m afraid I’m also in the “found this boring” camp (Both crossword and Dire Straits)

    A lot of the clues also seemed a bit clunky. Probably the effort of including the Dire Straits song titles. (Sadly this effort appears to have gone unnoticed by many of the solvers ;-))

    Thanks to manehi and Tramp

    I forgot to mention that I also find “Money for Nothing” as one of the most annoying, overplayed records of the era although “Romeo and Juliet” was also a contender for this.

43. How on earth can ASS mean bottom?

44. Shouldn’t 29ac have an indication that it’s an American bottom?

45. Crossbencher @43 – Snap!

46. Apart from 25d [all has been said] and 5ac, I think it was a typical Tramp crossword.
    But it was, at least for us, much harder (to get in to).

    At times, I wonder whether we’d ever get a plain unthemed crossword from Neil.
    (a) It’s easier to write, (b) I will perhaps enjoy it (even) more.
    It’s not that I didn’t enjoy this puzzle but when our beloved setter did a (wonderful) Leonard Cohen tribute in the Independent with only 5 or 6 themed clues, it felt all at once much better.
    There was just a bit more air to breathe in that Jambazi puzzle.

    In recent comments Tramp made clear that many of his puzzles are ones lying on the Guardian shelf for some time [that’s it, Paul B @33] and that he ran out of themes/ideas.
    Why not dump the idea of having to use themes all the time?
    I know, it’s Tramp’s trademark but his clue-writing skills are more than good enough to write a plain crossword.

    Meanwhile, I think David @34 justification of 5ac is not right.
    ‘There’s JOHN’ is not the same as ‘JOHN is in that place’ – ‘A … B’ is not equal to ‘B … A’, cryptically.
    Ted’s words @37 are more reasonable but as Tramp already ‘apologised’ for this clue, why look for a justification?

    Some final remarks:
    – apart from one or two things, absolutely quality clueing!
    – some never heard (anything) of Dire Straits which I find rather unbelievable
    – and Jim T @38, don’t fool us – what about Girls Aloud? 🙂

47. Sil, I had never heard anything of Dire Straits, my sons would bring music home to the various outposts I was in, but they never brought anything of that rock band, I checked with them this evening.

48. Re 25d, surely the deer is Bambi. I support the editor rather than Tramp @ 11.

49. I am not sure they were what I think is a ‘rock band’.
    But they were really the Biggest Band in the World in the 80s.
    I use capitals because that’s what they were.

    I don’t blame people not to have heard anything of their music but, yes, I find it also a bit odd.
    That said, my PinC who is more than 10 younger than I am (I am 60+) had no bells ringing.

    The main thing in my comment, though, is that I hope that at some point Tramp will write a beautiful unthemed crossword.

50. I have written unthemed crosswords. I think I have about twenty puzzles in the bank and I guess about five of those are unthemed. I’ll just have to avoid reading the blogs when the other fifteen appear.

51. Tramp @50 – some of us will enjoy more themed ones – it all adds to the variety. It’s always interesting to read the setter’s thoughts too.

52. Tramp, I love the themed crosswords, and they must be much more interesting to ‘compose’ than unthemed ones. Even if one knows nothing, or only a little, about the theme, they are usually solvable, and it is fun to Google the subject.

    Thanks again for this one, and I am looking forward to the next.

53. Oops, that wasn’t what I wanted.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like the themed ones.
    No other setter handles a theme the way Tramp does.
    In his approach, he’s really unique.
    And I didn’t say a thing wrong about his clueing.

    Still, I would like to experience an unthemed Tramp puzzle.
    I cannot remember that I ever done one but perhaps I’m wrong.
    I am just curious whether the style of setting would be different once the clues are free from the restrictions caused by a theme.
    And I repeat, I was deeply impressed by that 75% theme-free Jambazi crossword.

    Sorry, if I sounded too harsh when I said ‘Why not dump the idea of having to use themes all the time?’.
    No bad intentions!

54. I see what you mean, Sil. Thanks for your kind words.

    Neil

55. Thanks Tramp and manehi

    Was still a day behind doing this one after the hard one on Tuesday.

    Was a slightly different solving experience here. Dire Straits were one of my favourite bands and Mark Knopfler’s guitar work is still amazing ! However, I found the theme quite a blocker with the solve for a start – kept getting lost in the surface and not getting to the cryptic / definition parts. All credit for Tramp in doing that !!!

    Once that spell was broken, I found it on the easier end of this setter’s difficulty scale with the top in first. Had two clues that I didn’t quite get – didn’t see the ‘arms pieces’ at 1a for some reason and was thinking pieces was a pretty general term for muscles – makes it quite a brilliant clue now. Didn’t spot the TV as transvestite at 9d and went down the GENDER BENDER as ‘a performance with the gender roles played in an androgenous manner’ path.

    Had written a lazy and unparsed ILIAD in at 25d initially until seeing the 95% (‘we hear’ syndrome) parsed IAMBI after getting 29a. MUST was the last one, in what was a really enjoyable puzzle !

    david@34’s graphic but accurate analogy brought a black-humoured smile.

56. Cookie@34 I only just saw your comment and I shouldn’t normally bother responding but it has me puzzled. The third paragraph of my comment says something about the benefits of a classical education and I cannot for the life of me see how your comment or tapeworm relate to it.
    Or is counting not one of your strong points?

57. Well we’ve just done the xword his morning and really enjoyed it. We particularly like the Paulish clues such as 9 and 29.
    Thanks Tramp for an enjoyable accompaniment to coffee.

58. pex@57 – snap! (even the coffee)
    In case Tramp still perusing our views, here’s one I hope he’ll like. I’ve been solving broadsheet cryptics on and off since my age was in single figures (though only ‘stabbing’ at the Torygraph in those carefree pre-Thatcher days). Were a cruciverbal version of Desert Island Discs to exist and one was permitted to choose eight anthologies of one’s favourite setters (or even fewer), then a Tramp collection would most assuredly be one!
    Having said that, I would agree with some others that this was not perhaps the most delightfully flowing of the Tramp oeuvre – but then I don’t think much of the Mona Lisa though I adore da Vinci, so what do I know anyway?
    Thanks everybody….now where’s that bloody sun?!

59. Thanks folks

    Neil

60. Sil@46 I don’t know what gives you the authority to pronounce on English usage. but your bluster doesn’t change the simple logic. I don’t know what your as, bs and ellipses signify, but to me, as a native speaker of English for many years, “There’s John” is exactly the same as “John is in that place.” I will demonstrate it for you, step by step.
    “There’s John” means the same as “John is there”. That’s not difficult, is it? “There” means “in that place.” So if we substitute “in that place” for “there” then “There’s John” means the same as “John is there” and the same as “John is in that place”. It’s not difficult if you don’t over-complicate it..

61. Thank you for this explanation.
    I am not argueing about whether “There’s John” means the same as “John is in that place”, why should I?
    That is not my point at all.

    In the Chambers Crossword Dictionary one can find an introduction to crossword clues by Tim Moorey (setter in The Sunday Times).
    One of the things he writes (re definitions) is: ‘My test is whether the word or words used in the clue could be substituted for the solution in a normal English sentence’.
    That is not what happens in your example: the position of ‘John’ changes from end to beginning.
    There it goes wrong. You cannot replace “is in that place” by “there’s” in this clue.

    It’s exactly in line with Tramp’s own words @21: ‘The problem is, I can’t for the life of me think of a sentence where “there’s” can be interchanged with “is in the place‘.

    It’s not difficult if you don’t over-complicate it?
    True.
    You may find my posts blustery or whatever but you did obviously not understand the crux of the problem.
    It’s less an issue about the English language and the meaning of things but more about the techniques of setting crosswords.
    Thanks for your lecture anyway.

62. Sil is correct. In my view, definitions have to be precise and should meet the substitution test which Sil describes. My rewritten clue above satisfies this: “in that place is” can be substituted for “there’s” in some sentences: the original clue doesn’t meet this criterion and that is 100% my fault.

63. Sil@61 the techniques of setting crosswords mean nothing to me. They are a diversion for when I have nothing better to do. They are not important. I have better ways to spend my time.

64. This is a wonderful site.
    Some are here to find the last missing solution of a puzzle.
    Others try to find out why they couldn’t parse one or two solutions correctly.
    Some are here just to say how much they liked a puzzle and what their favourites were.
    Others try to learn a bit more about what crosswords are about [other than being a diversion].

    David, it is clear what solving crosswords means to you.
    You was also evident in the blog of this week’s Redshank gem.
    What you say @63 is actually quite revealing.
    If you think ‘techniques of setting crosswords’ are not important (to you) that is fine by me.
    However, if you make a statement in that area like in your posts @34 and @60, you should expect someone to give a reaction, I’m afraid.
    That could indeed well be me but there are a lot more ‘regulars’ (and others) who might have done that.

    I have a feeling that you get slightly annoyed by my approach of solving crosswords and the world around it.
    If you’re not interested in my posts, then, please, ignore them.
    But don’t treat me (through criticising my posts with a sometimes unpleasant undertone) like I am some kind of fool who should get a normal life.
    We are all different, you know.
    That is the good thing about this site.
    This wonderful site.

65. [I’ve posted an apology on the Boatman thread, Tramp.]

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