Guardian Prize 26,699 / Brummie

44 comments on “Guardian Prize 26,699 / Brummie”

1. Thanks Eileen. The setter is Brummie! I was confused by the instruction that a letter had to be changed before entry in the grid. As I neared completion I was increasingly concerned that the answers were fitting in without modification and I finished it without making any sense of the instructions. That came some time later. It might have been better if it said a letter had to be changed after entry in the grid.

   I fell for LAME in 26d but wasn’t really happy with it.

2. Thanks Eileen. Re Biggles’s comment, the headline is “Guardian Prize 26,699 / Bonxie”. I got a good many answers before cracking the ‘theme’ halfway through, and thereafter quite enjoyed the mental gymnastics required. I too stumbled with ‘lame’ but got up again all right. I would have maybe failed on 6D but for Paul’s 26,507 in March (which you blogged) and its discussion on oysters.

3. Thanks to Eileen for the blog. I needed you to explain several things for me.

   I started off like Biggles – the answers were just going in and I could not see any places where a letter could be replaced. Sadly I finished that way – without seeing his theme at all. 🙁

4. Thanks Eileen, and to Brummie for a great weekend challenge. I wasn’t happy with 15dn on first pass (O=poetic invocation?), and only changed it to “hip” when I couldn’t find any other potential fruits. But maybe Brummie was having fun with hip and hop separately being fruits and jointly being dance?

   .

5. Thanks to Brummie and Eileen. I got many of the individual answers (including WHITSTABLE, though CLIPPERS eluded me) but did not catch on to the fruit theme so that my grid never made sense.

6. Strictly speaking, the hop is not a fruit but it certainly imparts a fruity finish to many a fine ale. maybe “hep” could have been less controversial.

7. Oops! – my apologies to both Brummie and Bonxie [whose puzzle we enjoyed on Wednesday].

8. Thanks, Eileen. I also spotted PEDLAR/MEDLAR early on, which helped a lot. I got BLUEBELL, but in what context is L a usual abbreviation for “live”?

9. Thanks Brummie and Eileen
   I too was confused by being able to fill in most of the grid without making any letter changes. The Special Instructions did help me finish though, as I entered FIG without deciding whether the initial answer was FOG or FUG.

10. I got LAME (= halt) for 26a, and as this led easily to LIME, I just entered that in the grid and thought nothing further. Is this a weakness of the puzzle’s special instructions, since LAME and LIMP both lead to LIME? So a solver can get the clue wrong but enter the correct answer in the grid.

    Similarly, HEP (see #6) and HOP both lead to HIP. (Hops are not fruit but flowers or catkins; at least, the parts used in brewing are not fruit.)

11. Another good prize puzzle.

    All nicely clued and gettable but still enough of a challenge. I‘m sure I wasn’t the only one to have TENDER for 4D for a while. The misdirection in the wordplay was good enough to have me looking for a reverse of a word meaning “still” but without it’s first letter! But the inability to parse TENDER made me eventually see the obvious answer. (I even thought this “problem” might be the clue to resolving the “changed letters”!)

    Then came the real puzzle. The special instructions were a little vague. Which words were “of a kind”. I assumed the solution to the wordplay! And were the new entries still real words after the change of letter? (There’s usually an indication of this in this type of puzzle.)

    Often these “change a letter” puzzles mean that one must change the letter before the crosser will match the intersecting clue. But obviously not in this one as there was the completed grid! For a while I did consider that the “Special Instructions” had been included in error and were in fact for another puzzle 🙂

    So the only valid possibility was that the letters to be changed weren’t crossers. There it was staring me in the face. CHEERY, and the aha moment. Fruits!!!! It was quite easy from then on to find the rascals. (Lucklily I’m familiar with the medlar as it’s a delicacy in Belgium where I once lived for a while.)

    Sorry Guardian for ever doubting you!

    I enjoyed this. The “second puzzle” was a pleasant change.

    Thanks to Eileen and Brummie.

12. Hi Gladys @8

    I found L = live in Collins [not Chambers] and assumed it related to plugs [cf E = earth, which we get from time to time].

    I’m off to London for the day soon, so shan’t be able to answer any queries until this evening.

13. Just a clarification : took me quite a while to understand the wordplay.

    28 Grand Midlands town not about to go flashy (8)

    GLEAMING

    G [grand] + LEAMING[ton] [Midlands town], minus (to go) a reversal of NOT (about).

    It still works removing an anagram of NOT but I don’t think that was the intention.

14. Thanks Eileen and Brummie.

    This was fun. The only problem I had was with LAPIDARIAN, I first entered LAPIDARIST, I thought the former was an adjective, the latter a noun (Collins and Wiki seem to agree).

15. I thought this was clever and enjoyable. The way I approached it was to enter the answers as clued, see if any needed to be changed to accommodate crossing answers, none of which did as it turned out, and finally I looked for possible themed answers after making one letter changes to eight of the answers per the instruction. It didn’t take too long at the end to see the fruit theme and make the appropriate changes. I thought the instruction to amend answers before entry into the grid was a poor way of describing what needed to be done.

16. Thanks Eileen and Brummie
    A satisfying puzzle. Like Eileen and Gladys, I saw the theme through the pedlar/medlar link though I also momentarily wondered if there might be any mileage to be had from pedlar/vendor.

17. I’m another who was bemused by the special instructions. By the time I’d almost finished the crossword and I realised that the changed letters had to be uncrossed ones, I couldn’t be bothered to look for the theme (though I did find it this morning before coming to the blog). For me, the frustration due to the unclear instructions reduced the pleasure from what otherwise was a very nice cryptic with a bonus puzzle.

    I didn’t solve LIMP, finally entering LAME unparsed. As Eileen noted, even if I’d seen the theme, that wouldn’t have helped as both words lead to LIME.

    As well as PEERAGE, I loved the surface for CHEERY/CHERRY (an evocative image). I thought CLIPPERS was a nice piece of misdirection too. Other favourites included SHARP WORDS and BLUEBELL.

    Thanks to Brummie and Eileen.

18. I finished the puzzle entirely before I even noticed the special instructions. After I saw them, I spent about ten minutes staring at the puzzle, saw nothing, and decided to wait for today’s blog for the answer.

    Thanks.

    –M.

19. Like Biggles I finished the puzzle without having spotted the theme, and found it rather easier than usual for this setter. The theme came somewhat later-easy enough once spotted,but it took some spotting I thought. Liked WHITSTABLE and LAPIDARIAN.
    Thanks Brummie.

20. Thanks, all, for the comments, which, I think, largely confirm my own feeling that there really wasn’t a lot of point to the theme. I wrote the blog last weekend, immediately after solving, as I usually do, and I see that I said it was a satisfying solve – as I found it, at the time, supposedly because I’d managed to crack the theme. But, really, was it worth the effort, for either Brummie or us solvers, since, as I said in the preamble, it was only relevant if you wanted to submit your solution for the prize?

    A really nice addition to my day in London – and a rather weird experience: while I was tackling today’s puzzle on the train, it turned out that the couple opposite me [occasional lurkers here, apparently] were doing this Brummie puzzle, a week later. Mark and Sue, it was a delight to meet you and it would be really good to see you in York next week but, if you can’t manage that, watch this space for the next S and B gathering. 😉

21. A lot of criticism about the theme and special instructions.

    It seems bizarre to say that “it was only relevant if you wanted to submit your solution for the prize.”. This is equivalent to saying “I had a couple of clues to do to finish the puzzle but I couldn’t be arsed as I wasn’t going to submit it for the prize.”

    The fact is that if one didn’t complete the letter changes the puzzle wasn’t completed and the solution was incorrect”. The rules are still the same with our without the Special Instructions, Prize puzzle or weekday. The setter fills in an empty grid and the solver has to recreate that full grid from an identical empty grid. (Oh and as kind gesture the setter has provided some clues to help. (And some Special Instructions too, how kind)) So the completed grid without the changes isn’t the solution.

    I indeed did notice the SIs immediately and due to the this the solve had an extra piquancy I was always aware that I hadn’t changed any letters yet and was constantly looking for the opportunity to do so!

22. I have searched everywhere, except Chambers which I do not have, for LAPIDARIAN meaning ‘a stones connoisseur’. I find that a ‘lapidary’ is a worker who cuts precious stones, a ‘lapidarist’ an expert in precious stones and the art of cutting them. The word ‘lapidarian’ always seems to be an adjective.

    The site below gives a good explanation, but one must enter ‘lapidarian’ or ‘lapidarist’ oneself.

    http://www.dictionary.reference.com/browse

23. B(NTO) @21
    I think if the SI had been clearer, the bonus puzzle would have added interest for me. With the wording as it was, given the more usual practice of requiring crossers to be changed in order to fit all the answers into the grid, for many of us it seems to have caused frustration and anxiety as the possible sites for such substitutions disappeared rather than adding piquancy. Obviously, that doesn’t apply for those people who spotted the theme early and so knew they were not expected to substitute crossers.

    Is that acceptable? It was a Prize puzzle and it is good for those to be tougher, so I am not saying that it should not have been allowed, though I did choose to express my frustration here.

    However, it does seem to me to be “bizarre” to suggest that providing the SI was a “kind gesture” as without them no-one could possibly have guessed that there was any need to do any substitutions at all or that there was a theme. I’m not interested in submitting Prize entries, but it would have been impossible for those who do like to do that to get the required solution, and there would have been an outcry once the solution was revealed. It was no more a “kind gesture” than providing the grid and the clues.

24. Cookie @22
    The only source I can find for LAPIDARIAN as a noun is this one, which doesn’t give any references:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lapidarian#Noun.

    Clicking on the “lapidary” link then gives “a connoisseur of lapidary work”.

25. My e-Chambers gives lapidarian as an adjective, but my own view is that as the wordplay is transparent, if you can have a parliamentarian then you can also have a lapidarian, and have the term be understood. “Stones connoisseur” and “knowledgable about stones” seem to be reasonably interchangeable.

26. jennyk @24, thank you, well done, but a ‘lapidary’ is just an ordinary gem cutter/polisher, not a ‘connoisseur’.

    I see that the source I cite is in fact Collins Dictionary, no wonder Eileen uses it. I think it is marvellous if these definitions are also in the dead wood version. Perhaps Eileen might find the time to check in hers, the complete and unabridged version I presume. If they are I am going to order a copy.

27. Simon S @25, perhaps, there is also ‘librarian’, but the correct term, ‘lapidarist’, fitted into the crossword grid.

28. Cookie @26

    Chambers and my well-loved and now sadly dilapidated [pun intended] Collins [2006 Sixth Edition] both give LAPIDARIAN only as an adjective. I’m afraid I didn’t look it up when writing the blog – it ‘sounded’ right!

29. Cookie @26
    Well, the second definition of “lapidary” at Wiktionary is “An expert in gems or precious stones; a connoisseur of lapidary work”. How much weight to give to those entries in Wiktionary when more established dictionaries don’t include the same definitions is a difficult question, but they do give Brummie a justification for that clue.

    Cookie @27
    Although “lapidarist” would have fitted the grid, it would have requited GRATE to be changed, and that is one of the ‘fruit’ answers, so I can see why Brummie chose to use that ending. It could have been clued as an adjective, though.

30. Eileen @28, thank you (I looked up ‘dilapidated’ last night, the connection never occurred to me before, words are fascinating).

31. jennyk @29, Wiktionary says one thing, Wikipedia another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapidary

32. Cookie @31
    Your link says “By extension the term “lapidary” has sometimes been applied to collectors of and dealer in gems, or to anyone who is knowledgeable in precious stones.[4]”. That footnote links to a definition from Webster’s New World College Dictionary (2005), “an expert in precious stones; collector of or dealer in gems”. I think that qualifies as a reputable dictionary giving a definition equivalent to “connoisseur”.

33. jennyk 32, yes agreed, and if you type in LAPADARIAN it gives noun a lapidary, but nowhere can I find this usage, apart from Brummie’s clue, whereas lapidarist is in common usage.

34. Cookie @33
    I just tried googling for “a lapidarian” in quotes rather than just the single word and that does return some entries in which it is used as a noun, both literally for a person working stone and figuratively. For instance:
    “a lapidarian gradually transforms a stone into the precious diamond through cutting and polishing elaboration”.

35. Hmmm…I can see now why Adrianas’ lip is curling…

36. Cookie @35

    🙂

37. [jennyk, I live in an old gem cutting area at the foot of the Jura mountains in France. Some of the houses have a room on the top floor with windows running all along the north wall that were used for cutting diamonds, these were mostly sent from, and returned to, Amsterdam. These ‘diamenteries’ are now closed, but higher up in the Jura gems are still cut, usually in winter when there is little work possible outside on the farms. The seventh photo down on the right-hand side is of one of the old ‘diamenteries’

    http://www.ante-annum.com/cartes-postales-anciennes/112-01-gex ]

38. [Cookie, thank you for that information. I hadn’t realised diamonds were cut in that area. I associate gem cutting with big cities, perhaps because I spent part of my childhood living over a jewellers’ shop in London.]

39. lordy, I thought I might be getting somewhere with “green hanky material” = SNOT/KNOT
    Sorry

40. jennyk @23

    re “a kind gesture”

    I think perhaps you might read my post @21 again. The “kind gesture” referred to both the clues and the special instructions and I hoped was obviously ironic.

    I was just pointing out that the object of a crossword is to replicate the grid as it was originally filled in by the setter. Naturally a random guess would have very little chance of being correct although it would be mathematically possible.

    In this case the usual clues weren’t enough to find the correct grid so the special intructions were there to lead the solver there. The bottom line is that the grid produced by the clues alone was incorrect.

    By the way I didn’t see the theme early on just the special instructions. I only saw the theme after completing the grid from the clues.

41. Just for the record http://www.gemporia.com/en-gb/learning-library/terms/lapidarist

42. Enjoyed this one a lot – had all but two of the solutions pencilled into the grid before understanding the special instruction, after which the rest fell very quickly and I had no problems finishing it without reference material.

    Thanks to Brummie and Eileen

43. Thanks Eileen and Brummie.

    Because of the instructions, I set out with some concerns about whether to place any answers in the grid.

    In the end, I did like Biggles and answered all the clues without getting the theme at all.

    The extra layer hasn’t really done it for me I’m afraid. Just as well I’m too late to enter the raffle.

    Thanks for the parsing of SPUR which was beyond me.

44. Thanks Brummie and Eileen

    What an interesting concept! I had written in TEAR, PEDLAR, GLUM and GRATE before working out that the exchanged letters would convert them to fruit. The way of finding out was to use the Check Button to see if TEAR was actually the right answer for 10a (the advantage of doing the puzzle so late 🙂 ) … and then by similarly checking PEDLAR – the theme was revealed. Not quite kosher … but 10 months on who was to care !!!!

    Lots of interesting clues along the way to finish off the puzzle. Had no problem with LIME – had deduced LIMP from the yucky lettuce and had to look up to confirm that ‘halt’ was another word for LIMP. HIP was the last fruit to reveal itself and was my second to last answer in.

    SPA BATH was last to fall with the parsing taking quite a while to figure out. It became my favourite clue closely followed by the clever PEERAGE – both making great use of surface misdirection.

    The beauty with doing crosswords, similar to reading a good book, is that no matter how long after it was published, it still provides the same amount of pleasure when one finally gets to do or read it !! 🙂

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