I really enjoyed this, and found it quite tough aside from a few clues that went in almost immediately from their definitions. Favourite 16dn.
| Across | ||
| 1 | VULPINE | Foxy lady’s top in reflected light, invisible before long (7) |
| L=”lady’s top”, in all of: VU=reversed UV=”reflected light, invisible” plus PINE=”long” for someone/something | ||
| 5 | ENTICED | Seduced compiler to be indecent, somehow (7) |
| I=”compiler”, in (decent)*=”in/decent, somehow” | ||
| 9 | LAP UP | Relish looking back at an early stage (3,2) |
| PUPAL=”early stage” reversed/”looking back” | ||
| 10 | TECHNIQUE | A university dropout to teach unique method (9) |
| “TEaCH uNIQUE” with A U[niversity] dropping out | ||
| 11 | MONTE CARLO | Low bridges across central development in the city (5,5) |
| MOO=”Low”, around (central)* | ||
| 12 | PURR | Sound content to reverse some of the corruption (4) |
| partially hidden reversed in/”reverse some of”: [co]RRUP[tion] | ||
| 14 | ACCIPITRINE | Hawkish marine, left motherless after accident, has another depression (11) |
| =relating to hawks. [ma]RINE=”marine, left motherless” or losing a ma=mother; after ACCI/PIT=ACCI[dent], with PIT instead of dent as “another depression” | ||
| 18 | ACQUISITION | Getting clear one that’s charged is to be held inside (11) |
| ACQUIT=”clear”, plus ION=”one that’s charged”, with “IS” held inside | ||
| 21 | EVIL | Like the villain of the piece (and the other way round) (4) |
| “and the other way round”=> ‘piece of the villain’=> |
||
| 22 | UNDERSTUDY | Actor is subject to scrutiny (10) |
| UNDER STUDY=”subject to scrutiny” | ||
| 25 | THIRTIETH | The IRA tied the ends off at the end of the month (9) |
| Th[e] IR[a] TIE[d] th[e] – the first four words with their ends off | ||
| 26 | OVINE | Sheepish one to accept tiny position? (5) |
| ONE, around VI=6, the position or clue number corresponding to the answer TINY in this crossword | ||
| 27 | CREMATE | The alternative to bury compiler back in box (7) |
| ME=”compiler”, reversed/”back”; and inside CRATE=”box” | ||
| 28 | CANTEEN | Is youngster able to eat here? (7) |
| CAN TEEN=”Is youngster able to” | ||
| Down | ||
| 1 | VOLUME | Size of knob (6) |
| Double definition | ||
| 2 | LUPINE | Like a wolf bearing a flower on top (6) |
| E[ast]=”bearing” with LUPIN=”a flower” on top | ||
| 3 | IMPRESARIO | Agent and compiler’s for acquiring eastern garb (10) |
| I’M=”compiler’s”, plus PRO=”for” around all of: E[astern] plus SARI=”garb” | ||
| 4 | EXTRA | More old paintings put up (5) |
| EX=”old”, with ART=”paintings” reversed/”put up” | ||
| 5 | EUCALYPTI | Raise it with signal about playground trees (9) |
| IT plus CUE=”signal” all reversed/’raised’, around (play)*=”play/ground” | ||
| 6 | TINY | Regularly strip — topless any minute (4) |
| regular letters from [s]T[r]I[p], plus a topless [a]NY | ||
| 7 | COQ AU VIN | Entrée de Chanel 20, as they might say in Paris (3,2,3) |
| sounds like ‘Coco vingt’ which might be how they say “Chanel 20” in Paris | ||
| 8 | DREARIER | More forlorn, darling? That’s right — that’s about right (8) |
| DEAR=”darling” plus I.E.=that is=”That’s”, plus R[ight]; and around R[ight] | ||
| 13 | STANDS DOWN | Wears feathers and leaves the witness box (6,4) |
| STANDS=endures=”Wears”, plus DOWN=”feathers” | ||
| 15 | CLIENTELE | Elect representation to enshrine a legal right for customers (9) |
| (Elect)* – the anagram indicator is re-presentation, around LIEN=”a legal right” | ||
| 16 | MAJESTIC | Grandmother having fun at 99 (8) |
| MAJESTIC=”Grand”, MA=”mother”, plus JEST=”fun” plus IC=99 in Roman numerals | ||
| 17 | AQUILINE | Hooked with 24 resulting in equalisation (8) |
| =like an eagle, or “Hooked” like an eagle’s beak. (AQUILINE STOA)* produces “equalisation”, where STOA=the answer to “24” | ||
| 19 | MURINE | Mousy brown hair you see Armani team finally modelled (6) |
| (murine)*=anagram of the final letters of [brow]N [hai]R [yo]U [se]E [Arman]I [tea]M | ||
| 20 | WYVERN | Externally, woman — internally, very furious dragon (6) |
| the external letters of W[oma]N, around (very)* | ||
| 23 | ETHIC | The principle of sauce thickening (5) |
| hidden in [sauc]E THIC[kening] | ||
| 24 | STOA | St Thomas regularly seen in a place of philosophical discourse (4) |
| Zeno gave lectures at the STOA Poikile – see [wiki]. Regular letters of S[t] T[h]O[m]A[s] | ||
Great puzzle and blog
Thanks Philistine and manehi
It looked difficult, but there were enough easy ones to get a good foothold and it all came out fairly easily. I didn’t parse COQ AU VIN as I was thinking of the wrong sort of “Chanel” (btw the HTML needs sorting out for this one, manehi) or see the VI of OVINE.
I was helped by knowing all the animal adjectives. I wonder why he didn’t include “eagle” in the clue for AQUILINE? Too easy?
Some tricks recurred too often. He does like his “lift and separates” – 5a, 5d and 16d, Also a lot of playing around with removing letters. I had a “Doh!” moment when I wrote down TEACH UNIQUE with the A and U missing in order to work on the anagram, and noticed that I had actually written TECHNIQUE!
Favourite was MONTE CARLO.
Not the toughest ever but enjoyable.
Thanks Philistine.
Nice blog manehi (Gandhi according to spellchecker).
21 I parsed as ….th(E VIL)lain..
muffin – my original draft of the blog had to separate drop/out in order to have ‘out’ as an anagrind for 10ac – AND noted that ‘off’ appeared to be doing double duty indicating both removal and an anagram in 25ac…
morphiamonet – that parsing is much better, thank you. Edited
Thanks for a great blog, manehi.
My favourites were MONTE CARLO, CLIENTELE, MAJESTIC [I do like lift and separates!], and ACCIPITRINE [which I’d never met before, but I knew the Latin for hawk, so I could work out what the first seven letters must be – and then laughed out loud at the motherless marine!]
Many thanks, as ever, to Philistine for a most entertaining and enjoyable puzzle.
Eileen @5
I like “lift and separates” too, but weren’t they a bit overdone here?
I can’t include MAJESTIC as a favourite for a reason that I won’t bother to raise again!
Hi muffin
I nearly said that that particular reason had had an airing so recently that I hoped we wouldn’t see it again today!
Excellent puzzle. Thank you Philistine and nice blog manehi.
I still don’t fully understand 21ac, why is the bracketed part there?
I’m surprised that pedants have not yet pointed out that 99 in roman numerals is XCIX not IC. But it didn’t spoil my enjoyment of the puzzle.
Thanks Philistine and Manehi. I enjoyed the descriptions of fauna here, VULPINE, OVINE, LUPINE, MURINE and one I had not heard ACCIPITRINE, but which I got from the cross letters. I also noticed some other references to creatures (not sure if they were intentional) – PUP in 9a, PURR 12a, COQ in 7d and WYVERN 20d. Favourite was 27a CREMATE.
Charles Barnwell @8
I still don’t fully understand 21ac, why is the bracketed part there?
….because it is also “a piece of thE VILlain”.
I enjoyed this immensely, despite the lift and separates (not my favourites). Thanks for explaining EVIL, I had missed the second half. With The J,Q,X,Y I thought we were heading for pangram. I liked THIRTIETH, AQUILINE, COQ AU VIN (blimey, french homophones) ACCIPITRINE (not a word I knew). Spotting the theme of animal descriptions helped with some of the solve. And of course there were a view good laughs at the surface readings
Thank you Philistine and Manehi
Many thanks, Manehi, lucky fellow to land this one.
Enojoyed the inventiveness of MONTE CARLO, MAJESTIC, CREMATE, COQ AU VIN, OVINE, ACQUISITION & ACCIPITRINE but for me the pick of the bunch was EVIL – lovely clue.
I, too, like the Playtex clues but agree with Muffin that any gag can be overdone.
It’s a good job 1d was not a Paul clue – there’d be howls of outrage.
Lovely puzzle all round, thank you, Philistine.
Nice week, all.
…forgot to mention TECHNIQUE – another neat one.
Nearly finished this but was foxed (pun slightly intended) by 5d and 16d, the latter being the first clue I read so that was irritating. Can’t say I like the definition being embedded in a longer word but maybe that’s just a ploy I haven’t come across before. Thanks to Philistine for introducing me to ACCIPITRINE and STOA, neither of which I imagine I will be able to slip into conversation today.
Thanks for parsing ACQUISITION which I never worked out properly. Thoroughly enjoyed this: after getting MURINE, OVINE and ACCIPITRINE I twigged what was going on which made VULPINE and LUPINE write-ins (I had previously been convinced that “foxy lady’s top” must be V for Vixen). AQUILINE, however, was my last in. I like the lift-and-separate clues, but favourites were THIRTIETH, EVIL and the crafty TINY/OVINE connection. I think IC for 99 has now gone beyond the reach of correction and become an established crossword convention.
Thanks, manehi.
Enjoyed this one, especially when I twigged the VULPINE, LUPINE, MURINE mini-theme. Gladys is right: IC is so well established that I don’t even give it a second thought now. Someone will be saying that NI and ULSTER are not the same thing next …
Without wishing to commence another homophone debate, especially in a foreign language, COQ AU VIN doesn’t work. The VIN/VINGT bit does, because they are homophones; but Ms Chanel’s first name is – to the best of my understanding – pronounced like COCOA, which sounds naff all like COQ AU. Just saying.
7dn reminded me of struggling to buy twenty bottles of a particular wine in a French supermarket to bring home from holiday, when there were fewer than that on the shelf. I had to resort to using fingers to make clear to the puzzled assistant that I wanted ‘vingt, comme ça’.
Charles Barnwell @8 – your last point was alluded to in comments 6 and 7. IC = 100 arose [again] not many days ago – I’ve looked for it in the archive but can’t find it. I think the general consensus is what Kathryn’s Dad said @16.
Eileen @17
Actually it was IL for 49 in Arachne’s puzzle.
Did you notice that this clue has now been corrected on the Guardian site to 3-3?
Thanks, muffin -no wonder I couldn’t find it! [No, I hadn’t seen that.]
Thanks to Philistine and manehi. I needed help parsing LUPINE and COQ AU VIN and took a while before seeing the “rine” in ACCIPTRINE and the “stands” in STANDS DOWN, but, to my surprise, I did get through fairly quickly. Very enjoyable.
Thanks Philistine & manehi.
Got there in the end; it took a long time to disentangle grandmother. Isn’t VOLUME a type of knob? In which case there should be a QM at the end of that clue.
The lift-and-separates were fun, but as above maybe a bit overdone. I liked THIRTIETH and the motherless marine.
muffin @10. Thanks got it now.
Eileen @17, thanks. I’m out of date as usual.
I am still not convinced by the explanations of EVIL clue. I thought perhaps it had something to do with LIVE.
I agree with KD@16 about COQ etc.
Thanks manehi and Philistine
Wow, that was a tour de force. I’d been through all the across clues and got nowhere, thinking this was to be one of those days, then LUPINE went in, VULPINE straight after, and I could see what we might be looking for. Didn’t know ACCIPITRINE but worked it out late, the relatively simple UNDERSTUDY however being last in.
Crammed full of ingenious constructions. TINY, CLIENTELE and WYVERN my favourites. Had to come here to check whether I’d missed something with EVIL though.
And Kathryn’s Dad is correct about the IC. I was being too clever for my own good.
Dave Ellison @23 It’s just 2 definitions: The first is ‘villain of the piece’ = evil obviously. The second (the other way round) is ‘piece of thE VILlain’. I thought it was jolly clever.
William @26
Actually, although I suggested the “piece of the villain” part earlier, I’m not sure now that the other part works – “villain of the piece” suggests a noun, whereas EVIL is an adjective.
Thanks Philistine and manehi
Very enjoyable as ever from this setter.
muffin @ 27: it works if you take the definition as ‘Like the villain of the piece’, surely?
Yes, of course it does, Simon. I should have looked back at the original clue.
Thanks Philistine for a super puzzle and manehi for a great blog.
I found this fun, especially the animal adjectives, but I did get held up with AQUILINE trying to tie St Thomas AQUINas in with the clue. Too many favourites to list, but CREMATE stood out!
muffin @6 and Eileen @7, “you put your mouths on it” as they would say in Jamaica.
Ouch. After jogging blithely along on Monday and Tuesday, this was running into a lamp post. Tortuous stuff, clever but not really my cup of tea ; I’m off for a cocoa vin…..
I found this puzzle unusually easy. In my time zone I can print the puzzle at night and take it to bed, where I work on it until I get stuck. Except for Rufus, I rarely finish, and then I have the pleasure of seeing things over breakfast that I’d missed before. But I disappointedly finished the whole Tuesday puzzle at night, and last night I got all of this one except Majestic — I’m not good at lift and separate.
I still don’t understand the second half of 20a evil — after the hidden part, what is the rest of it doing?
As regards “the villain of the piece” the other way round, I thought it referred to a theatrical play being a LIVE performance…
Thanks Philistine and manehi
What a great puzzle! Was able to complete most of it on a stand-up all of the way home train ride tonight and finished off a couple of stragglers when I got home.
Appreciated the cleverness in quite a few clues, particularly THIRTIETH, OVINE and EVIL. I’m another who likes the lift / separate device and didn’t get at all put out by the number of times that it was used here.
Didn’t parse a couple – LAP UP (had just thought that having a ‘lap up in a race referred to having completed the first lap, and so would be early on in the event – obviously the reversal of PUPAL is much better) and didn’t see the homophonic French goings on withe COQ AU VIN (although I did equate ‘vingt’ and vin at one stage … didn’t think to take Ms Chanel’s first name to be the one for the other).
Finished in the SW corner with AQUILINE, ACQUISITION and EVIL (in which I saw the hidden answer, but didn’t link ‘the other way round’ bit to the clue to see how it was referenced)
Thanks both. Managed all but ACCIPITRINE, it being new to me. Thanks, manehi, for explaining 5a – I wondered if this was an unfortunate mis-anagram of indecent, thankfully not.
Of course “the piece of the villain” could also refer to a a portable firearm, a handgun, EVIL, but this is N. American slang…
Enjoyed this one a lot – full of wit and invention. Last in was MURINE, which was unfamiliar, ACCIPITRINE did ring a vague bell. Ticked TECHNIQUE, MONTE CARLO, CREMATE, EUCALYPTI and AQUILINE. EXTRA makes its 50th appearance in the Guardian archive.
Thanks to Philistine and manehi
I thoroughly enjoyed this and managed to do it all (though I had to look up accipitrine). I don’t know if this is because I managed to get it done during my lunch hour (as opposed to the end of the day when I’m tired) or maybe I was just on Philistine’s wavelength…
Either way, great fun!
Thanks to Philistine for the fun, and manehi for the blog.
These are the 50!
Janus 21780: Run in next race (5)
Rufus 21796: Run out of pictures to back (5)
Rover 21881: Wide part of an extractor fan (5)
Fawley 21971: Run taking seconds? (5)
Taupi 22109: More is not left in cutback (5)
Gordius 22121: More to be included in the next race at Doncaster (5)
Paul 22135: Small part, though wide, perhaps? (5)
Araucaria 22144: We want more from Connex trains (5)
Rufus 22298: He’s paid to say nothing (5)
Mercury 22350: Craft is back underneath once more (5)
Rover 22403: It could be a wide gash (5)
Rufus 22446: A minor player makes more (5)
Gordius 22752: Bonus derived from illegal sex traffic (5)
Taupi 22807: Possibly a wide face in the crowd on screen (5)
Paul 22836: Spare time right during cutback (5)
Paul 22851: More times with time in time (5)
Rufus 22972: Run a special edition (5)
Chifonie 23106: Particularly old painting put up (5)
Rufus 23114: Small part actor gets a run (5)
Auster 23204: New rate is about ten more (5)
Rufus 23288: Run out of paintings for mounting (5)
Paul 23428: More artillerymen on leave after Italy surrendered (5)
Bunthorne 23453: Run outside! (5)
Gordius 23488: Wide, say, right in the centre (5)
Logodaedalus 23560: Bit player gets former friend to go half way (5)
Chifonie 23678: Old-time artist made redundant (5)
Rufus 23724: Tear out about ten more (5)
Araucaria 23810: Sex training is not entirely off the menu (5)
Araucaria 23933: More outside? (5)
Rufus 24010: Another run (5)
Araucaria 24085: In this context rationality is a plus (5)
Paul 24099: Run old transport, not reaching home (5)
Logodaedalus 24306: One of crowd in old, upturned craft (5)
Paul 24473: Further, far from a star (5)
Chifonie 24558: Remarkably old craft comes back (5)
Paul 24593: More subordinate to a 27? (5)
Paul 24661: Old painting reflected more (5)
Rufus 24756: Run over? (5)
Puck 25037: Run in next race (5)
Orlando 25276: Run over (5)
Paul 25512: Further Essex traffic jams (5)
Paul 25559: More cross, train not in, completing last in puzzle (5)
Paul 25807: … more of which old, almost entirely conventional (5)
Chifonie 25870: Performer turning right in fire (5)
Qaos 25973: Another aspect of sex trafficking? (5)
Enigmatist 26029: Sussex train has stopped outside (5)
Rufus 26245: Non-striking bonus (5)
Otterden 26387: Counts as a run outside (5)
Brummie 26583: Who’s part of the movie host’s run? (5)
Philistine 26839: More old paintings put up (5)
Moo = Low? WTF?
Hi Roger @40
“The curfew tolls the knell of parting day / The lowing herd wind slowly o’er the lea / The ploughman homeward plods his weary way …” [Gray’s Elegy]
The herd is mooing too.
Is there anyone who does cryptic crosswords who didn’t go to public school / study classics at Oxbridge?
@ Roger Birds
Emphatically: yes! (Me, for one.)
…and have you never heard of Away in a Manger? “The cattle are lowing…”
Roger @40 also “the cattle are lowing” from a popular Christmas carol, @42 – yes and yes (comprehensive and maths, admittedly at Oxford)
@Mitz – apologies for double crossing!
[Roger Birds, see @39 what maths at Oxford leads to…]
Heard of Away in a Manger? Yes. But only know the first few lines.
Seriously, a place of philosophical discourse = Stoa? I must have been off the day my state school did that.
LIEN=”a legal right”. Yep, missed that day too.
STOA has also been used a few times before, which is why I remembered it:
Chifonie 21956: Animal detailed in portico (4)
Gordius 22916: It involves columns about tailless predator (4)
Rufus 23270: Point to a colonnade (4)
Brummie 23997: Portico ermine supplier shortened (4)
Brendan 24401: Greek’s walk from Piraeus to Athens (4)
Brummie 24813: Small carnivore shortened portico (4)
Shed 25579: Weasel docked in colonnade (4)
Crucible 26491: Old entrance to Salvation Army houses (4)
Philistine 26839: St Thomas regularly seen in a place of philosophical discourse (4)
LIEN is also one I knew from previous crosswords.
Glad you’re finding today’s crossword educational.
…
Rufus 22024: Right position of course – north (4)
Shed 22703: Boy brought up to property right (4)
Enigmatist 22859: Right to have one released by Martian (4)
Gordius 23761: Right incline, as they say (4)
Araucaria 24295: 13’s given right of possession (4)
Rufus 24648: Right position of course – north (4)
Orlando 25055: Borders of Lincoln green? Right! (4)
Brendan 25725: Try to deceive with new 17 for creditor (4)
Philistine 26752: Rights of foreigners first for the chop (5)
[Gray’s Elegy sets one of the most tranquil scenes in English poetry Roger @42 – but it’s not a poem to give succour to the brutish public-school elite of today, recognising the spirit of rebellion (“Some village-Hampden, that with dauntless breast / The little tyrant of his fields withstood”) and repressed opportunity (“Full many a flow’r is born to blush unseen”) inherent in the countryside.
No public school or Oxbridge, and certainly not classics, for me either. Oh and before anyone says I’m having a pop at anyone who’s been to public school, I’m not, just the brutish ones in the elite – it’s not often the fault of the child which school they go to. Anyway that’s enough before the moderator closes us down.]
beery hiker, what year was 21956 published, perhaps before Roger Birds was born?
[Cookie @53 – 21/07/2000. The archive starts in the middle of 1999 – I really should stop there!]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not having a pop, it’s just bloody frustrating when you’re starting out and trying to learn the cryptic lingo – then realising you have to be fluent in Greek/French/Latin/Mythology/Religion etc.
And don’t even get me started on the Times cryptic crossword!!! Talk about old boy’s network!
@RB
As I said, I don’t have a classical education and I didn’t go to Oxbridge. Your assertion that you have to be fluent in Greek/French/Latin/Mythology/Religion etc. is cobblers. However, I have been doing crosswords for all of my adult life so I would say that practice is the way forward. For me, getting the hang of it is still very much a work in progress. You can’t expect to get everything straight away – wouldn’t it be boring if it was easy?
Thanks manehi for a great blog and Philistine for a fun puzzle!
Needed parsing for ‘evil’ and ‘ovine’.
Efficiently lifted and separated the indecent representation of playground!
Favs: Pupal, Monte Carlo, Thirtieth, Eucalypti and Majestic.
That should be Lap up.
Wot a scorcher! It took me some time, but was worth it. Great theme, excellent cluing. MAJESTIC was my LOI – the penny eventually dropped. ACCIPITRINE and MONTE CARLO were my favourites. Many thanks to Philistine and manehi
Mitz,
COQ AU VIN might have been all the rage in your day, but it’s pretty darn scarce these days (as is a prawn cocktail with tomato ketchup and mayonnaise mixed together, cheese and pineapple on cocktail sticks, the ubiquitous black forest gateaux or any of that other terrible faux foreign nosh that the 1970’s spewed up).
The main crux of this clue is Coco vingt (20) – requiring some knowledge of French. Furthermore, IC=99 in Roman numerals. Lien = latin. Zeno gave lectures at the STOA. Offffff course he did.
Now, maybe you know all this because you’ve been doing crosswords all your adult life (whoopy fricking do your Royal modesty) and as a result you don’t even notice the amount of foreign/ancient references. But as a newcomer I can state it is not cobblers to state need to know these indicators!!
That was exactly my point – the reason I know a lot of those things is because I have been doing crosswords for a long time; nothing to do with my education or upbringing.
However, if you didn’t know the French for 20, or that insulting people on your first visit to a forum is not a very smart thing to do, you’re probably going to struggle.
Do calm down, Roger, it’s only a puzzle!
I liked this even though it led me a merry dance. I stared at both MAJESTIC and TINY for a very long time before either of them clicked. Both clues were excellent examples of misdirection and both- eventually- made me laugh. A nice workout.
Thanks Philistine.
P.S. I spotted the theme – again!!
Hello Mr Bird,
I doubt many of us are classicists, or alumni of public schools / Oxbridge, but I take your point about there being quite a few references that weren’t covered at school. I guess it’s one of the reasons that I enjoy crosswords – there’s always another word / trick to be learnt.
How did you find the Monday / Tuesday crosswords?
I thoroughly enjoyed solving this puzzle and then reading the blog, which I found very interesting and is already quite long.
I managed to parse 26A (OVINE) and 7D (COQ AU VIN) eventually before coming here. The only one I didn’t get was 19D (MURINE), but I really should have seen it. I solved it (i.e. guessed it) as either MURINE or MUSINE.
For one who is not liberal-minded about what I call sound-alikes (i.e. homophones or similar) I thought 7D was fine. The sounds are not the same but they are similar, and one could be mistaken for the other if you imagine somebody really saying “Coco vingt”.
I wasn’t going to mention 16D (MAJESTIC), but others have, as it were, allowed me to do so. In the blog for Arachne’s recent puzzle I said “there is no basis for IL = 49”. In this puzzle, similarly, there is no basis for IC = 99. Philistine has got away with it by popular consent. Gladys put it beautifully @15:
“I think IC for 99 has now gone beyond the reach of correction and become an established crossword convention.”
and others have followed her. I also appreciated muffin’s and Eileen’s comments earlier on (at 6 and 7).
If you use IL or IC in any other context (or let’s say in any serious context) it will of course be corrected. But for these crosswords the new rule has established itself and you won’t hear anything more from me on it.
… and many thanks to both Philistine and manehi.
XCIX = 99
Verum et nihili nisi verum!
I rarely comment on this site these days, but I wish to support the comments made by Mitz in response to Roger Birds. As another who did not receive a classical education – beyond elementary Latin, at which I was astonishingly useless – and who did not go to either of the Oxbridge Universities (though I was privileged to go to Durham as a mature student at the age of 50 to read Eng. Lit.), I have also garnered a lot of ‘crossword relevant’ knowledge by dint of years of enjoyable practice and improvement.
Having used the terms ‘faux’ and ‘crux’ in his posting @60, I wonder whether Mr Birds is having a gentle leg pull ?
Stan @ 66: nihil, please 😉
GC @ 67: at least he hasn’t complained about compileritis (yet).
stanXYZ @66: I liked your version of 99; much prettier than IC. But, where’s the verb in Verum et nihili nisi verum?
As I’ve said a number of times before, I’m very grateful to have been able to study Latin at my small state secondary school in rural Norfolk.
[Nice to see you back, George.]
masterson @ 69
Is a verb necessary? Sine qua non? I don’t think so?
Roger at 55,
You don’t need to be fluent – that’s asking too much – but 1-10 and things like ‘the’ and ‘of’ in most common Euro languages is pretty much a necessity (although I got pulled elsewhere for using ‘once’ (Spanish 11)). And you certainly don’t need an Oxbridge education either. What you do need is to crack on and persevere. The first cryptic I solved was an everyman, probably 35 or so years ago – but solve is the wrong word, as I went through a real physical dictionary matching the letters I had in the grid to words where the pattern matched in the dictionary.
As a solver I am not great, but I’ve also learnt a lot (or rather, have come across a lot) of stuff I simply wouldn’t or don’t care to know. But you’ll find that these things stick and next time, and the many times after that in most cases, you’ll be popping answers in that include obscure rivers, random Latin and very niche abbreviations without thinking.
Good luck
Adrian
@me 25 or so years ago, even, oops.
Matt
I haven’t seen Monday’s or Tuesday’s crosswords. I must confess I don’t tend to buy broadsheets very often, and on the odd occasion I do I’m frustrated at how my lack of knowledge regarding French/Latin/Rome/Ancient Egypt/Ancient Greece/Norse/Celts/Ulysses bites me in the backside. Much to my chagrin, the tabloid cryptic crosswords seem to be more my level, and the Unison one I also find very doable. (Please note, I’m not a Sun reader and the tabloids I come across are predominately in waiting rooms).
George Clements
As much as I would love to take credit for witty use of faux and crux, I have to fess up and admit I didn’t even know they were Latin. I am au fait (ffs I’m using French vernacular now!) with a few Latin medical prefixes/suffixes from my time as a medical underwriter, but at our school most kids were lucky if they could speak English, let alone anything else.
Lohengrin
That is a very erudite reply, many thanks.
And finally Mitz
You said I was talking cobblers so I replied, quite reasonably, using no less than 4 examples. Unlike a one-armed butler, if you’re going to dish it out, you have to take it back. Finally, I have not insulted ‘people’ (unless of course you’re a plural entity), but you do come across as exceedingly pompous.
@Roger Birds
It’s a good idea to lurk for a bit on a new site to get a feel for the protocol and the characters – did you?
I think you have misjudged Mitz, and an apology migth be due…
..might, of course!
Thanks all
I had an early peep at the composer’s name so I knew I was in for a treat after the disappointments of the past two days.
It was mid evening before I could start, favourites were 11ac ,25 ac, 5 d, 16 d and 19 d.
I’m was not very convinced by 7 down.Is Coco really remotely like coq au!
RCWhiting @77
Yes, Coco is like coq au although not the same. I’m not fluent in French but I have some familiarity with the language. Of the 3 syllables in both Coco vingt and coq au vin I think it’s only the middle one that sounds different. The ‘au’ is not like the ‘o’ in coq but more like the ‘ô’ in côe. They are distinct, but phonetically there is not much difference, and I think it’s fair to say that they sound similar.
I can’t describe the distinction between the two sounds any better than this because they are not English vowel sounds: perhaps some-one else can do better.
Sorry – there was a letter missing. I meant côte not côe.
I’m probably wrong, but I’ve always pronounced “coq au vin” as “cock oh van”, so it’s the first syllable that doesn’t work for me.
That’s the odd thing about the ‘o’ in French. The ‘o’ in ‘Coco’ (both instances) and in ‘coq’ are the same. I meant to say this above. In English the ‘o’ sound in, say, ‘cocoa’ and ‘cock’ could hardly be more different!
I may still be corrected, because I’m not an expert.
I’m probably thinking of Coco the Clown!
Yes!
muffin is absolutely right — the homophone doesn’t quite work. But I got it anyway.
Although this wasn’t my favourite Philistine I won’t comment on the crossword as it’s been done to death.
I will, however, warn about commenting on vowel sounds in various languages. It’s almost impossible for a non native to distinguish subtle or even not so subtle differences between his own language’s vowels and those of another language.
Apparently vowel recognition has a dependency on sound frequency and the brain learns at a very early age to identify the vowel sounds of it’s own language. This leads to new foreign vowels sounding exactly like home grown vowels at first. Some people can quickly learn to hear and pronounce foreign vowels while others find it almost impossible. (I’m in the second group by the way 🙂 )
P.S. Can we try and keep this oiks who aren’t familiar with Greek/French/Latin/Mythology/Religion etc. and didn’t go to Public School off the forum please. It’s LOWering the tone. 😉
My first in was ‘technique’, so the Parisian entree was a no-brainer – how many three-letter words end in Q? Then it took me a minute to clock the homophone. Then I laughed!
Thanks to all, enjoyed this puzzle very much. More Philistine please
Although I was a bit distracted by the disturbing photo cutout of DJ Derek looming out of the scratch pad
A crossword not too hard to complete but whether I really liked it – still not sure.
Many clues that are typical to this setter’s style.
Multi-fodder devices like in 25ac and 19d, you can expect them.
What some call ‘lift and separate’ clues (but I do not – 18ac’s ‘Getting clear’ is one for me) are also part of Philistine’s style and there were too many of them today, in my opinion.
Grand/mother (16d) and play/ground (5d) were nicely embedded in the surface.
However, I thought in/decent in 5ac was poor as all of the letters of ENTICED are part of ‘indecent’.
The mini-theme, first flagged up by Kathryn’s Dad, was nice – even if we thought of ‘rumine’ instead of ‘murine’.
If 1d refers to a knob on an amplifier, then I am with Robi.
Pretty weak clue, I thought.
The homophone in COQ AU VIN (7d) does not work at all and certainly not for the first part.
For some posters above this clue is a highlight.
For me it wasn’t.
Also because, to my knowledge, ‘coq au vin’ is a main dish and not an ‘entree’ in the English sense of that word.
For Americans ‘entree’ may mean ‘main dish’ but that is not indicated.
Philistine’s second language is, if I am well informed, French – so, probably, I will lose the debate.
Some people think, I am quite knowledgeable about crosswords, but unfortunately I still cannot make any sense of 21ac.
I have read all the posts but thus far no-one has made 100% clear how the clue works.
Blame it on me!
Thanks to manehi for the blog.
And to Philistine for a crossword that was ultimately enjoyable to solve.
However, sometimes I wonder why Boatman gets criticised and Philistine overloaded with praise.
For me, Philistine is moving away from Araucaria’s legacy and becoming somewhat boatmaniacal.
Effect seems to be more important than technique [10ac is actually an example of a clue that I wouldn’t be happy with myself].
But it adds to the fun, doesn’t it?
Brendan @85
That’s a fair warning about vowel sounds – well expressed too.
I have a good feel for the spoken languages French and German (and no other, by the way, apart from English in many but not all varieties), and I can claim to be aware of the distinction between ‘Coco vingt’ and ‘coq au vin’ and also how similar they are in sound. When they are said quickly they probably sound exactly the same to some hearers (although ‘Coco vingt’ is not something that would normally make sense).
I think Philistine is right in assuming the sounds are similar enough (without going into the finest detail of the phonetics) to make the clue a fair one.
I failed to solve 21a and 16d and needed help to parse 1a, 26a, 17d.
New words for me were ACCIPITRINE, STOA, MURINE, WYVERN.
Thank you Philistine and manehi.
I had problems with most of the clues. On looking back at them post-solve, I saw the intention, but I must admit I felt that the compiler hadn’t really said what needed to be said. That made the solve very hard indeed, and not too satisfying.
Roger Birds: The Monday cryptic is usually the easiest of the week, especially if the setter is Rufus. I suggest you start with Mondays. It helped me to find my way into the mysteries of clueing techniques.
Sil’s comment about Philistine vs Boatman is an interesting one. I enjoy both, but I feel Philistine has a lightness of touch. My negative comments about last week’s Boatman were mostly about the choice of theme and the need to know about it rather than the standard of clueing.
Roger – keep trying and keep commenting. My advice would be not to worry too much about completing the crossword, but to try a variety of setters, and to come here and check anything you didn’t understand – you’ll be amazed at how many crosswordisms you can pick up and how often some of the little ones are used. Most of the commenters here are expert solvers who have been doing crosswords for many years, and we probably all went through a stage of finding almost all broadsheet crosswords very difficult – in my case I dabbled for almost 20 years before I started taking it more seriously…
Thanks to the setter for the enjoyable puzzle and the excuse to share the definition of a philistine, which I’m sure doesn’t apply to him, as a person who thinks he’s hard-boiled when he’s really half-baked.
I didn’t get to this until late yesterday evening, and had to finish it this morning. I forgot to finish parsing ACCIPITRINE. I had maRINE, but I’m not sure I would have seen ACCIPIT/dent. I couldn’t fully parse OVINE, not having 6d at that point not noticing the connection once I did. I saw VIN/vingt but missed Coco Chanel. Favourites include MONTE CARLO, MAJESTIC and AQUILINE.
Thanks, Philistine and manehi.
On the subject of education and crosswords, many years ago when I was first doing ‘serious’ crosswords, I decided I wasn’t keen on the Times because it had too many classical and literary references. I have no idea whether that is still true as, although I have occasionally done their Quick Cryptic when DH has brought it home from work, it is a long time since I tried the main crossword. I usually find the Guardian cryptics within my range, though, with just an occasionally classical reference sending me to google.
I left school at 15 (that dates me!), went to technical college a few years later to do science A-levels (before techs all became first polytechs and then universities), then to Sussex University originally for maths and physics before switching to psychology. At no point in that did I study languages or literature other than O-level French, so no Latin or Greek. However, as “a snapper-up of unconsidered trifles”, over the years I’ve picked up a lot of bits and pieces of ‘culture’ from reading, radio, TV and, of course, from crosswords. Age probably helps too, as “older” = “more time to pick up random information” (though not necessarily also wisdom).
Roger @55 and later
I just want to support Lohengrin @72 and beery hiker @93. For me (and I think for many of the posters here), doing the broadsheet cryptics isn’t about completing the puzzles so much as enjoying the process and learning something along the way. This site helps a great deal compared with the situation when I started, as I’m no longer left staring at a solution in the paper and wondering how on earth to go from an unparsable clue to a totally baffling answer. Being able to find out why it is the answer speeds up the learning process a great deal. I hope you are prepared to persist and eventually find Guardian cryptics more satisfying than you do at the moment.
Many thanks to all those who make this site what it is – admin, bloggers and posters.
Roger
As someone who went to public school in conditions that those who have endured both have said provided good training for life in prison and studied classics at Oxford because the school gave me no choice I reckon that a limited facility with crosswords is no more compensation than I deserve. I gave up Eng Lit, history, maths, and science at 15 but cope with related clues as best I can. As for popular music and television!
Sil @ 88
21ac is ‘simply’: Like the villain of the piece (EVIL) and Like the piece of the villain (Hidden in thE VILlain)
@jennyk “staring at a solution in the paper and wondering how on earth to go from an unparsable clue to a totally baffling answer”, so so true
Roger @ 75
For your info, all broadsheet puzzles apart from the Times and Telegraph are available online for free (Times is expensive because you have to buy the whole thing, unless I’m doing it wrong, and the Telegraph is about £35 a year) in either interactive or PDF form, but as jennyk said, since they are all blogged here and in other places, you can just read the clues, parsing and answers and work backwards from that.
Another thing to look out for is Chambers’ book called XWD. It’s a list of most crossword abbreviations (it’s a few years old now) and it goes both ways (you can look up ‘t’ and see ‘time’ for example, or ‘temperature’ and see that it can be ‘t’). It’s kinda rare, and can be speedy, I think I paid £40 off Amazon a few years ago. It will fall apart. That aside, it’s a valuable resource in my opinion; I use it constantly when setting when the dictionaries don’t offer me what I need because whatever it is has dropped out of our current language (BEF in today’s Telegraph I didn’t know). It also has loads of stuff you’ll almost never see in a normal daily puzzle – Like BEF…
Finally it might be worth looking at some clue competition sites, simply to get a head start. The Times has a monthly one, Sunday Times a weekly, Guardian I think weekly with Alan Connor and DIYCOY which is weekly but judged by those that set the clue word. In my opinion (and I’m biased) DIYCOW is the best for newer solvers and setters alike. If you want to see users’ complete puzzles you need to sign up, but you can browse all the competition clues without that. I’m drawfull over there by the way.
All the best
Adrian
Lohengrin @ IC (!!)
Dont’t get me wrong, of course, I did see EVIL being a hidden but I am afraid I didn’t see the link with the part of the clue in brackets.
Now I see – a bit late, I must admit.
Yes, it’s fine.
Thanks manehi and Philistine.
I don’t pretend to have read all the comments.
But I enjoyed this. A veritable menagerie.
Yes, I too thought TECHNIQUE was a bit weak, but it got me in.
Thanks again.
By the way, I neither went to public school not any university.
For what it’s worth :), as the subject will surely come up again:
Regarding the use of IC for 99:
It was rare, but I found reference in Encyclopedia Britannica to at least one use:
An excerpt from Numerals and Numeral Systems by Professor David Eugene Smith :
“…
4. cI?.I?.Ic for 1,599, Leiden edition of the work of Martianus Capella (1599)
…
4) illustrates the persistence of the old Roman form for 1,000 and 500 and the subtractive principle so rarely used by the Romans for a number like 99;…
“