Azed 2405

6 comments on “Azed 2405”

1. 

   Pelham Barton

   #1 - Sun 22nd Jul 18, 07:39

   
   

   Thanks Azed and Andrew

   For 11dn, I think you have to take “ill-fitting” as the anagram lead. This makes the C part of the anagram (of ILOR C), which is sound technically if a bit feeble aesthetically.

    

2. 

   Pelham Barton

   #2 - Sun 22nd Jul 18, 07:45

   
   

   On re-reading my comment at 1, I think that is what Andrew was saying anyway, in which case the question is whether it is acceptable to use an abbreviation like C for about as part of the anagram fodder. I suppose technically C is an abbreviation for a synonym (circa) of the clue word (about), but it is such a standard abbreviation that I would pass it.

    

3. 

   Anna

   #3 - Sun 22nd Jul 18, 10:27

   
   

   I think Pelham Barton @1 is right.  Ill-fitting must be the anagram indicator.  Otherwise ‘about’ has to be taken as both anagram indicator and the letter C, and the ‘ill-fitting’ is redundant.  Not neat.

   I couldn’t parse DONNE.  TRONE was a new word but work-outable.

   Thanks to Andrew and to (the setter of) Azed.

    

4. 

   DRC

   #4 - Sun 22nd Jul 18, 10:52

   
   

   I don’t have a problem with the clue for LORIC myself. In the slip for 2,040 Azed did write:

   ‘On the abbreviations debate, I can do no better than quote verbatim a comment from this month’s first prizewinner, with which I wholly concur. Mr Barley writes: ‘One abbreviation practice that seems to me to be clearly unacceptable … is the creation of what are, in effect, indirect anagrams incorporating abbreviations. For instance, “Suit and hat Queen sported” does not do for HEART, in my view. It would have to be “Suit and hat ER sported”. The position may be slightly different for “One disliking Queen that endlessly misbehaves” for HATER, where ER is precisely replicated (not jumbled or separated) in the solution. However, I’m not really convinced by that device’s acceptability either.’ Neither am I.’

   I can’t recall Azed using a multi-letter abbreviation as part of the material for an anagram, but here’s his clue for PEARL-FISHING from 2,302:

   Opera theme (not his) Elgar reworked with piano finish [anagram of ELGAR P FINISH, ‘piano’ being replaced by P]

   And this is a VHC clue from comp 1,140 (COLD TURKEY) using ‘about’ to indicate the letter C in an anagram: ‘Source of kebabs about Yule or DT with the shakes?’ [anagram of K(ebabs) C YULE OR DT, &lit]

5. 

   cruciverbophile

   #5 - Sun 22nd Jul 18, 16:11

   
   

   As I understand it, single letter abbreviations should be unambiguous if they are included in an anagram, e.g. E could be indicated by “east(ern)” but not “point” or “note”. It also helps if the abbreviation is the initial letter of the word it represents, as this avoids indirectness. In the case of the LORIC clue there are two potential objections: (a) as Andrew says, we have to get from ABOUT to C via CIRCA and (b) there are several candidates: A, C, CA, RE and possibly ON. Still, in an anagram of a five letter word it’s not too hard to guess which one is required so I’d direct the jury to a Not Guilty vote.

   Multiple letter anagrams are another thing altogether. I’ve noticed quite a few in recent Listener puzzles, usually along the lines of RES for reserve or CAT for catalogue. Even if these abbreviations are the first few letters of the word they stand for, I think it’s asking too much of the solver.

   Thanks to Azed for another top-notch puzzle.

6. 

   Nick

   #6 - Sun 22nd Jul 18, 18:36

   
   

   I think it is unfair. As cruciverbophile states “…it’s not to hard to guess…”.

   A solver shouldn’t need to guess – it now puts doubt on any clue that contains ‘about’ or any other common fodder in a clue if it is an indirect anagram or not.

   Nick

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