My last blog of a Philistine puzzle was on a Monday – as, in fact, three of his last four have been.
Perhaps a bit chewier than typical Monday fare – but most enjoyable. As expected, lots of ingenuity and wit – and a bit of mischief – here, resulting in several grins, groans and ahas. Not surprisingly, I have many ticks, so I’ll include comments on individual clues in the blog, rather than list them here.
Many times, when blogging or commenting on a Philistine puzzle, I’ve expressed my admiration for the way the answers to his composite clues run on in the grid. I was momentarily surprised / disappointed to see that that was not the case today – until I realised that 1/22, 10/21 and 3/24 are all symmetrically placed – even more impressive!
Many thanks to Philistine for a great start to the week – I loved it.
Definitions are underlined in the clues.
Across
1 One not paying attention follows investor’s vehicle (9)
BULLDOZER
DOZER (one not paying attention) after BULL (investor)
6 Heath Robinson’s beat (5)
THROB
Contained in heaTH ROBinson
9 This operation could make you groan (5,10)
ORGAN TRANSPLANT
An anagram (transplant) of ORGAN makes you GROAN – great clue and not the only one to do that for me today
10, 21 Kind of gorgeous exit? (4-4)
DROP-DEAD
Double definition – I’m very fond of the first one
11 Grandfather initially isn’t at all moved (8)
PALATIAL
As a lover of ‘lift and separate’ clues, I was held up here longer than I should have been, looking for the definition: PA (father) + an anagram (moved) of I[sn’t] AT ALL – I think this has to be my top favourite
14 Chatter yet to be arranged between oxen (6-3)
YAKETY-YAK
An anagram (to be arranged) of YET between YAK and YAK (oxen) – this can also be spelt YACKETY-YAK (I’ll resist giving the earworm 😉 )
15 Like state analysis (5)
ASSAY
AS (like) + SAY (state)
16 Hesitation having underwear in this shade (5)
UMBRA
UM (hesitation) + BRA (underwear)
18 City’s ancestral manoeuvres (9)
LANCASTER
A neat anagram (manoeuvres) of ANCESTRAL
20 Novel and one drink allowed in exam (8)
ORIGINAL
I GIN (one drink) in ORAL (exam)
25 Church ban for telegram? (15)
EXCOMMUNICATION
A telegram is an old (EX) form of COMMUNICATION – a big tick for this
26 Pitchers were out first on stadium (5)
EWERS
An anagram (out) of WERE + S[tadium]
27 Most of all, queries must be directed to reach the goal (9)
EQUALISER
An anagram (must be directed) of AL[l] + QUERIES
Down
1, 22 Strange ladies swaddle in newborn, this could be a lifesaver (5,5)
BLOOD DONOR
LOO (ladies) round (swaddle) ODD (strange) in an anagram (new) of BORN
2 Look around this country and love the record (7)
LOGBOOK
LOOK round GB (this country) + O (love)
3, 24 Study why said alibi mostly inconsistent and keep in custody (4,4)
DENY BAIL
DEN (study) + Y (why said) + an anagram (inconsistent) of ALIB[i]
4 He or she regularly groom for nothing (4)
ZERO
ZE (he or she) + alternate letters of gRoOm
5 Moved at speed, firing and looting (10)
RANSACKING
RAN (moved at speed) + SACKING (firing)
6 Bosses get the best hands (3,7)
TOP BANANAS
TOP (the best) + BANANAS (hands)
7 They help players or back a side when playing (7)
ROADIES
A reversal (back) of OR + an anagram (when playing) of A SIDE
8 Hurt actor (one in a minor role) (3,6)
BIT PLAYER
BIT (hurt) + PLAYER (actor)
12 Culture retrospective on wobbly bums is a problem for viewers (10)
STRABISMUS
A reversal (retrospective) of ARTS (culture) + an anagram (wobbly) of BUMS IS
13 Philistine’s request? Of course, you’re welcome (2,8)
MY PLEASURE
MY (Philistine’s) PLEA (request) + SURE (of course)
14 I’m your child and I find this chat tedious (3,4,2)
YOU BORE ME
An amusing double definition
17 Surprise from Glasgow in cheese and bread (7)
BRIOCHE
OCH (a Scottish expression of surprise or, in my husband’s case, more often exasperation but it was a lovely reminder) in BRIE (cheese)
19 This pet can be truly awful (3,4)
THE PITS
An anagram (can be) of THIS PET
23 Olympic rider’s best run taking only second place (4)
LIEU
Second letters of oLympic rIder’s bEst rUn – as simple as that but it took nearly as long to see as 11ac and is therefore my runner-up for top favourite.
What a great start to the week with lots of ticks. Favourites were BULLDOZER, ORGAN TRANSPLANT, YAKETY-YAK EXCOMMUNICATION, MY PLEASURE, LIEU and the clever PALATIAL taking pole position, once I worked out what was going on. Was looking for a pangram towards the end but it didn’t transpire. Just perfect for a Monday.
Eileen, a small typo in STRABISMUS.
Ta Philistine & Eileen.
LOi 11a PALATIAL: a clue involving Elision (aka Playtex, not Lift and Separate) – they can be hard to spot, and are regarded by some as unfair. Very nice! 😉
So witty – as always from this setter. I too struggled with looking for the definition in 11ac – spent far too long on this before I saw the trick. Did not know YAKETY-YAK could be written without a c but knew it had to be right so trusted in the setter’s expertise. Particularly liked 9ac but loved the surfaces throughout. Happy days.
Eileen, also a small typo in EQUALISER which you have in the plural.
Loved EXCOMMUNICATION and ORGAN TRANSPLANT. NHO ‘ze’ as he or she or the eye problem.
Thanks Philistine and Eileen
I really enjoyed this too, and was also caught by PALATIAL, my last one in, but a very satisfying pdm when I got it.
Having said this is chewy for a Monday, I didn’t really find it so, and solved it quicker than yesterday’s Quiptic. But I really like Philistine’s setting.
Postmark @4 – there are a number of offerings for non-gendered pronouns, of which ze/zey is just one. I’ve seen xe too.
Thank you to Eileen and Philistine.
There is a possible nina in the middle row of the grid – “orpine” (a plant also known as “livelong”). Can’t see any more than that though.
Many thanks to Philistine and Eileen
Great puzzle, lots to enjoy. Like Eileen, I thought LIEU was well hidden. Many thanks to P & E.
Thanks for the explanations Eileen, I had to reveal 11ac and 23d. I had guessed palatial but couldn’t make any sense of it. As far as I can remember, using the second letter is a new trick, but I’m sure somebody here can cite a previous example. No problem with those clues, just too devious for me today.
I didn’t spot why it was an ex-communication either, but it had to be.
Thanks, PM @4 – fixed now.
Lots to like here with top ticks for PALATIAL, YAKETY YAK and EXCOMMUNICATION
I’ll also eschew the obvious earworm and go for DROP DEAD Gorgeous from 90s two-hit wonders Republica
Super start to the week
Cheers E&P
My top faves: ORGAN TRANSPLANT, PALATIAL, EXCOMMUNICATION and LIEU.
BLOOD DONOR
Looks like, the cryptic reading requires ‘swaddles’.
Thanks Philistine & Eileen.
KVa @11: I think you are right regarding ‘swaddles’.
12dn misspelt. Should be strabismus.
I agree with KVa, too, regarding ‘swaddles’. I was waiting for someone to comment and perhaps suggest an explanation. 😉
Thank you DanielO @13: careless typo (rather than misspelling) now corrected.
Great start to the week; a tad more challenging than the usual Monday fare, and none the worse for that.
I agree that ‘swaddle’ fits the surface but not the wordplay. Pity, as it’s a clever clue.
Favourites: ORGAN TRANSPLANT, PALATIAL, EXCOMMUNICATION, MY PLEASURE (a lot of agreement here!) and the squint, which always reminds me of Beachcomber’s Dr STRABISMUS, Whom God Preserve, of Utrecht.
Thanks to Philistine and Eileen
Eileen, I did point out the typo @1 but you obviously missed it.
My apologies, AlanC.
Oh good, a Philistine!
Whether it should be swaddle or swaddles in BLOOD DONOR, I failed to sort out the parsing grammar for that one. I also got hung up on Philistine’s request being “my please” and so didn’t parse MY PLEASURE. Haven’t met ze as a non-gendered pronoun before, though I have seen xe and one or two others.
But this was very enjoyable to solve as the pennies dropped on LIEU and ORGAN TRANSPLANT, PALATIAL, BRIOCHE and the EX COMMUNICATION. YOU BORE ME and DROP DEAD made me laugh, as did YAKETY YAK (by association with the earworm).
Loved this puzzle. 10/21a DROP DEAD was a standout. I couldn’t see that particular parse of 11a PALATIAL. So glad to have the blog to help me understand the subtleties.
Thanks to Eileen for a great blog (didn’t see that symmetry, but yes it was very pleasing) and to Philistine for a great work-out.
Ze / zij are definitely feminine pronouns in Dutch. (And also 3P).
This is my first completed Guardian puzzle in years. I was surprised to complete it so quickly, and I solved too many by the crosses.
11a has me puzzled. What class of clue is it? There is no definition at the beginning or the end, it does not seem to be cryptic, or & lit.
There are a lot of clever people out there, so can somebody clue me up
please
@15 Gervase – and Spike Milligan’s interpretation. A splendid puzzle and Eileen’s exemplary blog. Thank you both.
jabiruinoz @21 there is a definition in 11A PALATIAL = grand, but you have to split grandfather into grand and father to solve it. That’s usually referred to as “lift and separate” and Philistine usually has at least one example each puzzle.
When that word is split, father = PA is part of the solution.
jabiruinoz @21 – sorry if it wasn’t clear. As I said in the preamble, definitions are underlined in the clues.
I think this is your first comment here, so welcome to the site, if so – and my apologies if not. I hope we’ll hear more from you.
Sorry to dampen the general enthusiasm but I had several doubts about this. I may be dense but how is I short for ISN’T (11a)? OCH is almost never an expression of surprise. In fact Chambers gives several alternative definitions and doesn’t even mention surprise. In my experience (in both Scotland and Northern Ireland) it is almost invariably a simple interjection, similar to ‘Well …”, and doesn’t really mean anything. I did like most of the rest, though I wondered if Philistine didn’t get the memo abut Mondays being a bit easier than the rest of the week.
poc@25 it is INITIALLY Isn’t (i.e. first letter of …)
poc @25 – in 11ac, the I comes from ‘initially isn’t’: it isn’t (!) an abbreviation.
A really fun puzzle for a Monday. re BLOOD DONOR, “swaddles” or any other singular verb wouldn’t work after “ladies”, so “swaddle” is correct. I did tut though about the use of “this” to refer to a person.
Right up my street, as it’s so often the case with this setter.
I suppose if the pub had more than one ladies toilet, an enquirer might be told, “you’ll find the ladies out the back on the right”. Meaning both of them. The clue is so good, it deserves a little slack!
shane@23 and eileen@24.
Ah I see it now. I have encountered these before, but was not a wakeup. That solves my dilemma with grandfather being p as in pa or pop.
Thank you for the response.
I am gradually getting my feet wet with the easier Monday and Tuesday puzzles as I had a long break from cryptics, and the guardian was my preferred source for many years. I am on a learning curve, and enjoying the challenge.
Interesting and a bit confusing re ze. It’s apparently based on sie, which means you… hmm.
Adrian @28: agreed – a singular verb does not work in the surface grammar but the verb is referring to the word ‘ladies’ not to the females themselves and a word is a singular thing so needs a singular verb. ‘Swaddle’ is not correct for the cryptic grammar.
Lovely, witty puzzle!
PALATIAL and LIEU took me ages to see what was going on, so I feel reassured that others were similarly misdirected or baffled. Both are delightful!
I also love ORGAN TRANSPLANT, EXCOMMUNICATION, YOU BORE ME, YAKETY-YAK, DROP DEAD and BRIOCHE.
BLOOD DONOR was tricky and felt like assembling a Russian Doll 🪆.
Thanks to Philistine for the fun and Eileen for the delightful blog and helpful explanations.
Very enjoyable. My favourite was THROB, an excellent hidden. I failed to parse PALATIAL, for which I have no excuse as I should have been on the lookout for this sort of clue which is a favourite with Philistine.
FrankieG @2 raises the question of the terminology here, which has unfortunately become a bit confused over the years. (Please look away now if you are irritated by detailed discussion of clue types.) The use of “lift-and-separate” in a crossword context was first coined by Mark Goodliffe in 2007, as stated in Frankie’s second link @2. Mark used it to refer to the technique of separating out two words which seem to go naturally together (like “Welsh rabbit” and “treasure chest” in two of the clues mentioned in the link). Later however people on fifteensquared started using “lift-and-separate” to refer to the word-splitting type of clue like today’s 11a, and this usage came to predominate. There are occasional arguments as to which is “correct” but I don’t think there is really a right answer! (And “Playtex” was I think intended to be a sub-category of the second meaning of L-and-S.)
Anyway, many thanks to Philistine for a great puzzle and to Eileen for an excellent blog.
I thought the ‘ze’ most unfair; perhaps that’s just me?
Otherwise, brilliant of course. I always admire Philistine’s wonderful puzzles (and a joyful surprise to find him on Mondays)
Many thanks, both and all
That was fun. My favourite was LIEU, until I came here to learn the parsing of my LOI PALATIAL, which now becomes my joint favourite. I agree with Eileen that this was a bit tricky for a Monday, and with Shanne that it was less tricky than yesterday’s Quiptic. Many thanks Philistine for the enjoyment, and Eileen for the usual impeccable blog.
Lovely stuff from Philistine, though he had me worried as I worked through the across clues looking for a way in.
I’m not sure I see the problem with “swaddles”. I took this as (after translation, as it were) “A word meaning ‘ladies’ swaddles a word meaning ‘strange’) – I’m not sure that the surface grammar necessarily accurately translates into the cryptic grammar by necessity?
A lot of negativity in this puzzle – “drop dead”, “you bore me”, “the pits”. Together with “yakety-yak”, “zero” and “bit player” was Philistine telling us his feelings about the Oscars ceremony lat night?
Thanks Philistine and Eileen.
I read the BLOOD DONOR clue as ladies swaddled and didn’t look more untill it was queried
[jabiruinoz @30 – if you’re getting back into this, the Saturday Quick Cryptic, an 11 x 11 grid and theoretically only 4 clue types, the Sunday Quiptic and Sunday Everyman are all declared to be on the easier end of the Guardian puzzle offerings.]
“Ze” for “he or she” struck me as odd, because I’d always thought it was an alternative to those pronouns, not a word meaning either one or the other.
Had to give up in the NW corner as nothing was coming to me, but other than that, enjoyable if, as mentioned, somewhat chewier than I was expecting this morning.
Thanks Eileen and Philistine
JoFT @37: You quote ‘swaddles’ – and certainly LOO swaddles ODD in the wordplay, but the clue has ‘swaddle’, which works for the ‘ladies’ in the surface, but not for the construction, where LOO is singular. Words frequently have different grammatical functions in the surface and the wordplay, but the grammar should work in both interpretations.
Yes, great fun, as is usual with Philistine. Lots of ticks, so I won’t just repeat others’ selections. I thought the ‘Hurt actor’ was a very clever misdirection because it wasn’t John or William. I fell into the grandfather trap, so thanks to Eileen for spotting that. I particularly liked the Olympic rider in second place for LIEU.
Thanks Philistine and Eileen.
bodycheetah@10 – I had the same earworm for 10a-21a Gorgeous (1997) – with its final “DROP DEAD!”
For 1d, 22d I had: “A Pint? That’s very nearly an armful” (1961) — [the whole thing’s available on the BBC iPlayer.]
poc @25: Setters submit crosswords to the various papers and the editor picks the day of the week to publish them. It’s not Philistine’s fault that this crossword didn’t meet your Monday expectations.
I think, Eileen and I recently agreed to differ on what exactly a ‘lift-and-separate’ is, but 11a PALATIAL (my LOI too!) is clearly a prime example we can’t possibly disagree about! I believe it’s the sort of clue which some editors (including the late and sadly missed Alberich) wouldn’t give time of day for … has to be the Grauniad for this sort of delight! But most welcome, once I sussed it!
STRABISMUS only vaguely rang a bell – like so many medical terms most of which are an almost closed book to me. One celebrity with this condition was the silent film comedian Ben Turpin. Apparently he had his eyes insured against the risk of them ever un-crossing!
There seems to be a medical mini-theme here with ORGAN TRANSPLANT and BLOOD DONOR (yes I remember the Hancock episode!). And BRIOCHE defined as ‘bread’ put me in mind (apocryphally) of dear old Marie Antoinette. In YAKETY-YAK the surface is so absurd, you just have to like it! Also likes for EQUALISER and EXCOMMUNICATION (although Telegram, with a capital T, is still very much with us…); and DROP DEAD.
Thanks to Philistine and Eileen.
Thanks to Eileen. I lived in Glasgow from age 2 to 21, and I cannot recall OCH being used there, or anywhere else in Scotland, to express surprise. Resignation, yes; exasperation, certainly, although I see that dictionaries attach surprise to long list of emotions that it can convey. Och well, maybe somewhere…
Balfour @45: OCH is the Scots equivalent of ‘oh!’, surely? This can express many different emotions, including surprise (though I’m not sure I encountered this usage either, in my 10 years living in Scotland).
Laccaria @44: Weren’t you aware that Philistine’s day job is as a heart surgeon? His puzzles always have one or two medical references.
Tony Santucci@45: of course. And thanks to those who explained the initial I.
I forgot to mention that 12d reminded me of Beachcomber’s “Dr. Strabismus, Whom God Preserve, of Utrecht”.
Laccaria@44: the last time I referred to a single word split as a lift and separate, I was immediately told that I was wrong and it was a Playtex. I try to avoid using either term these days.
Gervase @40: Doh! Quite right.
I am curious though – does the grammar always have to work perfectly with both the wordplay and the cryptic interpretation? In cases where a verb becomes a noun or v.v., then how does it work? e.g. Take the clue (which I have invented for illustration, so may not be valid!) :”dogs chase bird in mix-up (9)” = “cocktails” where “tails” is “dogs” as a verb. But a verb cannot chase something (tails as a noun could, but as a noun it is not a synonym for dogs). So the clue must mean ‘a word meaning dogs’ chases bird.. Would that be legitimate?
Gervase @40:…only if there’s only one ladies loo. See me @29.
I do love Philistine and this puzzle just confirms all his great qualities! Does anyone else remember the mondegreen puzzle? I was a fan for life after that!
Enjoyed this. LIEU was the only one that defeated me and total red faced head slap when I see Eileen’s explanation. I was so close to a completion! Thanks for all the explanations on arcane terms like lift and seperate which often leave us newbies quite puzzled…
Thanks Philistine for an excellent crossword with many favourites including ORGAN TRANSPLANT (COTD), DROP DEAD (great DD), LANCASTER (neat anagram), ORIGINAL, DENY BAIL, TOP BANANAS, THE PITS, and LIEU. I couldn’t fully parse PALATIAL; I’ve often seen compound words pulled apart for wordplay but I don’t remember seeing one pulled apart that was both definition & part of the wordplay. It’s good to know that this trick passes muster. Thanks Eileen for your always dynamic blog.
William @50: If there are more than one, wouldn’t they be LOOS? 🙂
JoFT @49: I think not!
LW @51: Yes! I still smile when I hear Credence Clearwater Revival singing “There’s a bad moon on the rise…” and I think, “There’s a bathroom on the right…”
Gervase @54: …quite right…I was trying to get the setter off the hook.
Gervase @46 Well, if you live in the same Scotland as the Broons and Oor Wullie, of course, you express surprise using ‘Jings!’, ‘Crivvens!’ or ‘Help ma boab!’.
Tony Santucci @53: it doesn’t pass muster everywhere. Perfect for the Guardian and probably the FT; not sure whether I have seen it in the Indy. When serving my apprenticeship and submitting puzzles to Big Dave’s Rookie Corner, which is quite closely aligned with The Telegraph’s style, this construction would most certainly have been beyond the pale. I quite like it – though I do think it’s slightly fairer to solvers to indicate that ‘something is going on’ with a QM or an EM. But that’s just a personal view.
TonySantucci@53: the important thing for newbies is to know that tricks like the one in PALATIAL exist. Philistine is particularly fond of them.
Thanks PostMark @58 for the clarification. It seems QM’s & EM’s can cover a multitude of ‘sins’.
Liz @51 – I do! But I,’m not at home at the moment and can’t look it up.
Re “och” – people seem to be assuming that surprises are always positive. I’ve had many a nasty surprise to which the expression “och” would be perfectly appropriate!
PALATIAL and LIEU last two in for me. I don’t feel so bad about the second one now I’ve read the blog. My hindsight thought it was a gimme so glad I wasn’t the only one.
Good Monday stuff. EXCOMMUNICATION also gave me trouble. Another that seemed simple in hindsight but probably wasn’t.
Nice to see UMBRA again, a word I only know through crosswords. Seems to come up regularly and usually in the SE corner.
Liked: YAKETY-YAK and DENY BAIL
Perfect Monday stuff.
Thanks setter and blogger.
(Eileen in the blog says that PALATIAL is a lift-and-separate. FrankieG @2 says that it is not. Laccaria @44 agrees with Eileen and says it “is clearly a prime example we can’t possibly disagree about!”. I think this maybe bears out my comment @34 that the position is a bit confused 🙂 )
[Playtex refers to their cross-your-heart bra, that was marketed to lift and separate. Possibly still is. Personally, when I see someone insisting on calling a crossword clue device by the name of a woman’s underwear manufacturer, I assume, like Gregg Wallace, they haven’t learned not to say aloud what they are thinking about.]
Philistine’s mondegreen Prize: 27788
…blogged here by bridgesong. “Just let me staple the vicar.”
JoFT @49: the trick is to adjust your clue to be “dogs chasing bird in mix-up (9)”, which works grammatically in the surface and in the cryptic reading. Nice clue, by the way!
Shanne@65 totally agree, it took my sister to point out to me how all this bra talk among setters (‘supporter’) and solvers (‘playtex’) is a bit Beavis and Butthead. Can 15sq poets not come up with some better terms, along the lines of “split phrase” (for lift and separate) and “split word” (for playtex)? Anyhow, back to crossword, I never find Philistine straightforward and was held up big time by PALATIAL my LOI, but no hard feelings, a great clue and an equally great feeling on completion. Thanks P & E
[Hadrian @69: Beavis & Butthead is spot on! I recall watching the summer Olympics years ago in a room full of mostly men; one of them noticed that the Brazilian women’s volleyball team had BRA on their visors. It took two seconds for someone to say, ‘her hat says bra’ in his best Beavis & Butthead voice. Men are slow to mature (if ever.)]
I believe Playtex (which I’ve never used myself) was the preferred version of one person on this site of ‘lift and separate’, invented by crossword champion Mark Goodliffe, cited in FrankieG’s link @2.
Sorry,Laccaria @44 – see here:
FT 13541 (Alberich): Location for Santa Maria’s centre reached outward (6) (ibid) .
I haven’t been able to keep up with the discussion as much as I would have liked today: I was helping at a drop-in this afternoon and when I got home there was a ‘database connection error’ for 15², presumably for everyone else, too (?) as I was having no problem with other sites.
I bow to FrankieG @2 re elision!
I find that it was shuchi of ‘Crossword unclued’ herself who blogged the Alberich puzzle https://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/11/12/financial-times-13541-alberich/
– and she discusses ‘lift and separate’ there, too.
My loi was PALATIAL as well, as the only word that fitted all the crossers, and then gave it a long hard stare before I realized it was one of those fiendish so called “lift and separate” clues. Which used to be the slogan for a certain women’s underwear brand, or am I much mistaken?
Anyway, a lovely smooth solve as ever with Philistine the perpetrator. Loved ORGAN TRANSPLANT too, which I imagine was one of his first grid fills…
Oh, I see my post crossed with the indefatigable Eileen’s@71. Came rather late to the party today, my excuse …
Haven’t done a crossword – or visited here for a while – so hello again everyone. Question from me: where is the container indicator for THROB? As far as I can tell, it’s just two random words (well, a name) and a definition. Isn’t the fact that the word is hidden supposed to be clued?
Billy P @75 – good to see you back! The apostrophe s indicates that the two word have/ hold the solution.
As ever I find myself in resounding agreement with Eileen’s assessment. My favourite here was YOU BORE ME for a classic surface comprising exactly the sort of thing my teenage children say to me on a frequent basis.
Mandarin @77 🙂
I shall be going out to choir practice very soon, so unable to comment further until late evening.
@ 76, I meant, of course, ‘the two words have’.
Hadrian @69 – despite previous challenges on this website for an explanation of what is being lifted in clues of this type to make “lift and separate” a relevant description rather than an unnecessary allusion, I have yet to see any justification. Indeed, it usually important that the split words stay where they are for the cryptic grammar to work.
Billy P @75 – The inclusion indicator is the ‘s i.e. Heath Robinson has
I did solve this one for a lunchtime exercise, but I didn’t care for the style – too many tricks, not enough treats. I liked this week’s Prize much better, and finished that one a tad more quickly.
I note the Quiptic no longer has a print version, which is rather annoying.
Seeing that “lift-and-separate” seems to have two different meanings in a crossword context (me @34), and that some people at least find it rather offensive or puerile (@65 and 69), perhaps it’s time to come up with a better alternative.
Van Winkle@79 and Lord Jim@82 Agreed, I would contend that Mark Goodliffe (🙏Eileen@71) did well to isolate this as a species of cluing device, but the nomenclature deserves improvement.
Eileen @ 78 /Crispy @ 80
Thanks for the explanation, I guess it makes sense. But it seems very tenous to me. My usual complaints 6 months ago always tended to the same thing, and this is another example! If “filler words” are allowed to be used liberally (as they are here) then how are you supposed to know whether it’s a filler word that can be ignored, or a critical part of the wordplay? For example, we have extraneous apostrophe-s in multiple clues in this crossword, which have zero relevance to the wordplay (1a investor’s, 18a City’s, 23 rider’s). And one other instance where it is (13 Philistine’s). Maybe I just take it a bit too personally but it feels like a cheat to me. Maybe I need to go do more rigidly structured crosswords! Or… just relax a bit, and enjoy the fun 😀
Thanks as ever for your guidance! 🙂
Lord Jim @82 – I really object to the use of Playtex to describe the type of clue described by Mark Goodliffe as “lift and separate”, because that really does take it into smutty underwear territory. Unfortunately, now it’s been linked, we’ve all got bras in our heads when “lift & separate” is used, and so many bras use that in their descriptions, I believe a different description would be preferable.
Shanne @85 – but when has “lift and separate” ever been innocent? It doesn’t describe what is going on in clues of this type, so where did it come from other than being an allusion to bra adverts?
In 1/22, I wonder if swaddle is a misprint for swaddling. Then it would work in both cryptic and surface.
I prefer Philistine in chewier mode. He seems to have done quite a few Mondays lately.
Thanks, S&B
@lord Jim,Van Winkle, Shanne- re ‘lift and separate’, if there’s widespread agreement on this then maybe Admin will advise bloggers to update the term, maybe to divide-and-conquer or suchlike?
Favourites: DROP DEAD, BIT PLAYER, ROADIES, PALATIAL, ORGAN TRANSPLANT.
New for me: EQUALISER = a goal that levels the score in the game (27ac); ZE = he or she (for 4d).
Thanks, both.
Thank you for the explanations, Eileen!
It was a great puzzle, a lot of fun.
But I worked out a lot from crosses or from definition. I didn’t know “ze” for “he or she” and “bull” for “investor”.
PALATIAL was quite a new trick for me. I guessed the first letter, having crosses and anagram for the second part, but didn’t see the definition.
But this was very enjoyable.
ORGAN TRANSPLANT… well, it made me groan and the laugh. EX COMMUNICATION, YOU BORE ME, DROP DEAD, YAKETY YAK made me laugh. The whole puzzle was amazing.
Hadrian@88. I like your ”divide-and-conquer” , but of course, with your moniker, you would say that : -)
But I think it’s also funny and apt, as that’s the only way we solvers are going to conquer these clue types.
I was thinking along similar lines with division. We already have subtraction to describe a cryptic operation.
We’d need to be careful of the abbreviation for divide-and-conquer, DAC would be okay, but please not a D&C because that is another female thing, and a very unpleasant one, dilatation and curettage.
Hadrian@88. I like your ”divide-and-conquer” , but of course, with your moniker, you would say that 🙂
But I think it’s also funny and apt, as that’s the only way we solvers are going to conquer these clue types.
I was thinking along similar lines with division. We already have subtraction to describe a cryptic operation.
We’d need to be careful of the abbreviation for divide-and-conquer, DAC would be okay, but please not a D&C because that is another female thing, and a very unpleasant one, dilatation and curettage.
Oh really! In the comments on yesterday’s Quiptic, we had objections to Skidmarks (too scatalogical for a Sunday apparently) and now we have objections to Playtex. Do people not go to the loo on Sundays, or wear underwear? Ok, my mother strongly objected to “bum” as unnecessarily vulgar but she’s long-dead. Surely, in this day and age, no-one can be genuinely offended by such, or any, words?
Anyway, I enjoyed the puzzle, although I failed to solve three clues. Thanks to Eileen and Philistine.
me@92 cont. Or maybe we can call it a Hadrian?! because Hadrian invented it, we’ll remember divide and conquer, and we have to imagine a wall between parts of the clue.
Van Winkle @ 86 – no, lift and separate also applies to dahlias (and other bulbs in the garden), mascara (clump free makeup), yoga, ballet and gymnastics poses – mostly splits when doing other things, but it’s what is said to the participants as they get into position.
Elision (cf FrankieG@2) works?
This was a delight to solve. Many thanks Philistine and Eileen. For what it’s worth, my top three were LIEU, EXCOMMUNICATION and ORGAN TRANSPLANT, and the term lift and separate works fine for me.
I’m hoping to try the mondegreen Philistine puzzle soon. Ta to FrankieG @67 for the link.
Thank you paddymelon@92! I hope, whether it’s with DAC or something else, we can move on from ’lift and separate’ and that Admin encourages that. And then if people insist on using the Playtex image (as Van Winkle@86 says, ‘lift and separate’ is not an innocent expression) when an alternative is available they will have to own that preference. Progress, fingers crossed!
Rogerpat @93 – the argument is not that the reference is offensive but that it is tiresome. There is neither with nor wisdom to the phrase.
I don’t avoid these two clue names because I find them in any way offensive, but because they always have the potential to start a fight over what exactly they should be used to describe.
As a learner I’ve found several recent midweek cryptics quite impenetrable so it was lovely to find a very accessible Monday grid, thoroughly enjoyable. Thanks Philistine and Eileen for the blog.
I am not long out of bed and am amazed at the number of comments since I my cry for help.
11a I would not have needed to ask if I had properly read Eileen’s solution. I had not heard of “lift and separate” as a method of clueing.
Eileen, I am impressed that you monitor the blog and make appropriate comments.
Shanne thanks for the suggestions for alternates. I am looking for the challenge in quality puzzles, and trying to get into the minds of setters, which is why I am focusing on the daily puzzles early in the week.
gladys @100. Agree, these arguments are divisive. Sounds like another argument. 🙂
And agree Van Winkle@99 they are tiresome.
I like Shanne’s examples @ 95 of lift and separate in horticulture and gymnastics, which are also apt in this cryptic operation. Take your pick as to which image you prefer.
Alphalpha@96. I’m not in favour of ”elision”, despite it being so named in Crossword Unclued. Elision in its usual linguistic sense is the omission of something, ie a sound, syllable or word. This is an omission of nothing, ie a space, which in itself is a strange concept, and then to interpret that as an instruction to insert one. (An editor’s instruction for that is # , but that would lead to other complications given its use in social media.)
PALATIAL was brilliant; I wrote it in without any clue on how it works. Same thing with MY PLEASURE (although I definitely should have been able to figure this one out…). Thanks for the explanations Eileen, and thanks Philistine, for an awesome, fun puzzle.
I’ve been rolling my eyes rather too much at the offence taken over some fairly mild language. How people cope with comedians is beyond me. But if we must censor it, how about using just “separate”? I don’t really see what “lift” adds to it.
A good puzzle, manageable but not completely straightforward.
Hey!
We’re all grown-ups here (aren’t we?) and we appreciate that mens’ and womens’ bodies are different (don’t we?) Not to mention transgender.
If a brassiere was designed to lift and separate a pair of breasts and worked as designed, then why shouldn’t the name become part of the language?
Think about it the next time you do your “hoovering”. And ask yourself if Playtex does exactly what it says on the tin.
And if you still can’t see it, you should have gone to SpecSavers.
I have been using Playtex in my crossword diary for over 25 years but only for a single word split into two , I also use Gossard for two words pushed into one before you can solve the clue . L & S was coined for separating two words already separate which is different , and the namer has first dibs on what they call it . People can choose whether they use these terms or not, if people are offended then I envy you for your very , very sheltered cosy lives .
Admin @106 – you exemplify the point that many of us have been making. Neither Playtex nor lift-and-separate do what it says on the tin. Where is the lifting in clues of this type, which require that at least some of the separated item stays eactly where it is? The use of the term is a tired reminder of the Carry On Generations repressed obsessions.
I’m starting to worry, as I agree with Roz. Should I seek professional help? 🙂
To save Eileen’s email being flooded with the debate about crossword terminology, I’ve posted a plea at #93 on site feedback.
Thank you for your consideration, Shanne but I had decided yesterday evening, after another frustrating day of stumbling around in Humpty Dumpty territory and having spent years directing folk to shuchi’s excellent site (Crossword Unclued) that, although I wouldn’t expect anyone to see it, I would post here that, in future, I shall not refer to that kind of clue by any name but simply refer to it – possibly as ‘one of my favourite clue types’, for instance, explaining how it works as and when necessary. I promise not to mention it again.
Mark and Gervase, I disagree that the grammar in the wordplay must match the grammar in the answer. For example, “it’s” can mean “it is” in the wordplay and “it has” in the answer (or vice versa). The surface grammar can mislead.
Thank you Eileen@111, your sensitivity proving once again why you are this site’s pre-eminent blogger. To Admin@106 and Roz@107 I would just ask if you might have this discussion – on whether the use on this site of breast-lifting imagery as an analogy for word and phrase separation is rather tedious and immature – with your (grand)children/nieces/nephews, and your students Roz? And if just having that discussion might feel inappropriate, then why? I’m not sure ‘come on, we’re all grown-ups’ will be the that generation’s first reaction to the imagery, more likely that the purveyors of that imagery have ‘very, very sheltered cosy lives’. I’m sorry that Admin isn’t yet supporting this move, but I hope Eileen is not the only blogger to observe it. 😊 (my proudly woke face)
The discussion of the smuttiness or triteness of the L&S term has somewhat hidden the original question: Can it be applied to the separation of both two components of a compound word and two words that are often linked as a phrase. My answer is “Why not?”
I agree with Admin@106, and have no problem with L&S. Having said that, my vote would be for calling both devices a “Hadrian”. We have created terms on this site before (primarily for use on this site) – “jorum” is one example – and the wall image is a good one to describe what is going on. If you don’t like “Hadrian”, “Jericho” would be a suitable alternative.
Several posters have said that Philistine is a favourite setter, thanks to his wit and creativity. I concur wholeheartedly.
And Eileen is a favourite blogger for the same reasons. Thanks, both, for enhancing my day.
Hadrian @113 My daughters are aged 29 and 31. They are not cruciverbalists but I sent them earlier a link to this discussion and asked for their views. I haven’t heard back from 31, but 29 found the fuss being made over L&S barely believable. There was an f-word in there which I shall spare the faint-hearted.
Balfour@115 Good data, duly noted 🙏 My 23yr-old son, on the other hand, just shrugged and said ‘no, yeah, that’s sexist’. I’ll ask my others in due course and report back. PS Best not show her our gerund vs gerundive exchange over Everyman, more expletives may be provoked
Just to round off my report, when 31 responded to me after work, she included a series of hilarity emojis and a comment which included the consonants w and k – and it wasn’t ‘woke’. I don’t think she likes being patronised.
Balfour@117 Abusive comments are best not shared